Friends(hip)

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Tashiro

May 30, 2015 9:54:20

So, discussing the use of the Friends Cantrip, and the weirdness that comes from it.  So, you get one minute, an advantage on Charisma checks, and then the target becomes hostile.  So... we discussed the weirdness of using it to do strange things.

 

You run into someone, who's neutral towards you.  You cast Friends, convince them to accept a boatload of treasure, no strings attached.  This is something people would be suspicious of if they're neutral, but as they're currently your 'friend', it's cool.

 

The spell wears off.  The person immediately becomes hostile.  How dare you use magic to convince them to accept a lot of gold and treasure!!  The nerve!

 

...

 

What is wrong with this picture?  ;)

#2

durntaur

May 30, 2015 10:33:32

It's more like, "how dare you use magic to affect my free agency!" It's the principle of the matter; it's a violation.

#3

mrpopstar

May 30, 2015 10:33:23

Tashiro wrote:
#4

Tashiro

May 30, 2015 12:05:30

Oh, I'm well aware - but the outcome should be in question depending on circumstances.  The person can be aware, 'hey, you used magic on me', and then decide for themselves what this might mean in the context of the situation.  If someone was, say, unaware of a threat and not inclined to listen to the character, and the character used Friends to convince the person to get out of an area, just in time for the NPC's life to be saved - the NPC probably wouldn't be automatically hostile at the end.

 

"Hey, you mind controlled me!"

"Hey, I just saved your life - you wouldn't listen otherwise!"

"My life isn't worth the sacrifice of my freeeedooooooooom!"

 

Yeah, context is important.

#5

mrpopstar

May 30, 2015 12:18:08

Tashiro wrote:
#6

Macv12

May 31, 2015 5:54:29

Tashiro wrote:
#7

Orethalion

May 30, 2015 16:35:16

durntaur wrote:
#8

durntaur

May 30, 2015 19:24:13

Orethalion wrote:
#9

Saeviomagy

May 30, 2015 22:27:10 		If course they're hostile towards you for something that has no more effect on them than having a second person with you help to convince them. People don't get hostile at that. You aren't robbing them of free agency, you're being a bit more persuasive than normal.
#10

Orethalion

May 31, 2015 7:56:12

Saeviomagy wrote:
#11

mrpopstar

May 31, 2015 10:00:48

Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #11)

Saeviomagy

mrpopstar wrote:
#13

mrpopstar

May 31, 2015 20:07:28

Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #13)

Saeviomagy

mrpopstar wrote:
#15

Orethalion

May 31, 2015 20:48:03

Saeviomagy wrote:
#16

mrpopstar

May 31, 2015 21:16:03

Saeviomagy wrote:
#17

Coredump00

May 31, 2015 22:21:41

I think you guys are missing the point of the OP.  This isn't meant as a rigourous exercise or legal proof.... just a way to mess with folks.

 

Sure, I would still be made is someone broke into my house. But I would also feel kind of silling calling to police to report that somone broke in,  cleaned my house and replaced my TV with a Plasma screen.....

#18

mrpopstar

Jun 01, 2015 5:13:46

Coredump00 wrote:
#19

Rya.Reisender

Jun 01, 2015 5:18:15

In a world were spells can control minds, I'd be pretty scared of such a spell being cast on me. Who knows how much it messes with my brain? Will I lose important memories? Maybe die earlier? Who knows. If a friend did that to me even if he did that to help me, I'd be pretty pissed of and quit friendship most likely, just to be sure not be around someone where the risk of him casting such a spell on me isn't zero.

#20

Orethalion

Jun 01, 2015 6:20:38

mrpopstar wrote:
#21

Noctaem

Jun 01, 2015 6:27:55

What should happen as a general rule is that the target becomes hostile as it understands you used mind influencing magic on it.  The DM however is free to make a ruling to change that if he/she wants.  But the rules are clear.

#22

Orethalion

Jun 01, 2015 6:48:02

Noctaem wrote:
#23

Noctaem

Jun 01, 2015 8:20:03

Orethalion wrote:
#24

ChrisCarlson

Jun 01, 2015 8:24:44

Minor point of fact: Evidently you don't cast friends on the person you are influencing. You cast it on yourself. It just affects one person you are designated for it to work on at the time of casting.

#25

Saeviomagy

Jun 01, 2015 16:15:29

Yeah, actually looking at the spell, it doesn't affect the target's free will at all, because it's range is self. It's not slipping someone a roofie - it's putting makeup on. Literally.

#26

Orethalion

Jun 01, 2015 17:37:17

Saeviomagy wrote:
#27

mrpopstar

Jun 01, 2015 21:04:06

ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #27)

Saeviomagy

mrpopstar wrote:
#29

mrpopstar

Jun 01, 2015 20:57:35

Saeviomagy wrote:
#30

Saeviomagy

Jun 01, 2015 21:22:55

I think you missed my edit.

 

Is having a higher charisma than your target has wisdom manipulative, confronting and offensive?

#31

mrpopstar

Jun 01, 2015 22:01:45

Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #31)

Saeviomagy

mrpopstar wrote:
#33

mrpopstar

Jun 02, 2015 5:19:58

Saeviomagy wrote:
#34

Orethalion

Jun 02, 2015 6:14:28

Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #34)

Saeviomagy

mrpopstar wrote:
#36

Orethalion

Jun 02, 2015 21:31:04

Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #35)

Macv12

Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #36)

Saeviomagy

Orethalion wrote:
#39

Orethalion

Jun 04, 2015 23:43:57

Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #4)

QwertyAzerty

Tashiro wrote:
#41

Ilse

Jun 05, 2015 5:16:38

Orethalion wrote:
#42

Orethalion

Jun 05, 2015 6:43:04

Ilse wrote:
(Reply to #42)

Macv12

Orethalion wrote:
#44

Orethalion

Jun 05, 2015 17:48:01

Macv12 wrote:
#45

Ilse

Jun 05, 2015 18:14:31

Orethalion wrote:
#46

Tashiro

Jun 07, 2015 15:45:38

Okay, so following this, I'm getting this out of it.

I cast this spell on myself, to make me more persuasive.

But anyone I talk to and make a persuasion check on in the next minute will become hostile.  (and the spell even suggestions violent types very much may attack me)

What I want to know, now, is how does the person know they've been manipulated with magic?  I'm not casting the spell on them.  Is the 'letting the victim know' a part of the spell, then?  Who was the idiot who added that to the cantrip?  He should be thrown out of wizarding school!  ;)

#47

Orethalion

Jun 07, 2015 16:11:25

Tashiro wrote:
#48

Macv12

Jun 07, 2015 16:42:12

Or the magic sort of "clouds their mind" at the time and prevents them from reacting in the way they "want" to, but when the effect is over, they remember perfectly being "dulled" like that. Because it's low-level and clumsy. Higher-level spells don't do that, necessarily.

 

And you don't have advantage against "anyone you talk to." You pick one person. So clearly you aren't just enhancing yourself to talk and act better, you're causing one person to be more receptive to whatever you do.

#49

Ilse

Jun 07, 2015 17:00:29

Macv12 wrote:
#50

ArialBlack

Jun 07, 2015 18:27:25

Wait, so if my plate armoured paladin/warlock has Mask of Many Faces and this friends cantrip, he can disguise himself as anyone he's seen, pretend to be that person with MoMF, use the friends cantrip for something innocuous, and leave before the duration ends.

 

Then the person affected will be hostile to the person my pal/war was disguised as?

#51

Ilse

Jun 07, 2015 19:19:24

That would be the way to interpret it, yes, assuming that the victim is not too violent and does not attack immediately. An illusionist is also very good at this, as he can alter disguise self at will.

 

As a DM, I would still rule that it has to be reasonnably believable for the victim that it was the person impersonnated being there (and not being 300 miles away and on another plane). That being said, even without re-directing the anger at somebody else, disguise self is very effective as not having the anger directed at oneself.

#52

Orethalion

Jun 07, 2015 20:49:03

ArialBlack wrote:
(Reply to #52)

ArialBlack

Orethalion wrote:
#54

Coredump00

Jun 08, 2015 0:36:23

I want to avoid a side as to which version is 'RAW' on the matter.... I have heard of other DMs that rule it that way.  At least one had it so they were hostile to the actual caster, and they didn't even know why.  But if you walked back into their presence, they just really didn't like you... because...magic says so.

#55

Ilse

Jun 08, 2015 1:16:59

So, instead of the obvious explanation that the target recognises you because you interacted with him and spoke to him while trying to influence him, you now have a simple cantrip creating a super-powerful magical link that makes the target dislike you forever, and recognise you in whatever shape or form you meet him in the future, but that no one can detect or counter because it is after the end of the spell duration ? And on top of that, if he meets someone that looks exactly like the person who charmed him, but is actually someone else, he will automaticall know that it is not him because he does not get the "feeling" ? All that for the side effect of a cantrip ?

 

Come on, how reasonable is that ? Occam's razor should be your best friend, people...

#56

Orethalion

Jun 08, 2015 6:06:53

ArialBlack wrote:
#57

Orethalion

Jun 08, 2015 6:10:20

Ilse wrote:
#58

ArialBlack

Jun 08, 2015 6:49:59

If I am disguised as Mrs. Miggins, then 'the caster' is Mrs. Miggins; 'you' are Mrs. Miggins as far as the victim knows.

 

This is a more sound reading than the idea that a cantrip can penetrate magical disguises perfectly. What level is true seeing?

(Reply to #57)

Macv12

Orethalion wrote:
#60

Ilse

Jun 08, 2015 13:45:45

Macv12 wrote:
#61

Orethalion

Jun 08, 2015 17:48:08

Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #61)

Macv12

Orethalion wrote:
#63

Saeviomagy

Jun 08, 2015 23:14:03

Also if it is a strange and wierd magical effect, why would it be subject to the normal rules of being hostile at all? If someone is supernaturally hostile towards you to the extent that it penetrates any disguise or identity misdirection, why are we assuming that it would end simply because you reason with the target?

#64

Orethalion

Jun 09, 2015 6:11:49

Saeviomagy wrote:
#65

ArialBlack

Jun 09, 2015 8:18:27

TBH, I think it's a poorly written spell all round:-

 

*  making it affect the caster doesn't make sense since it only afffects the target, according to how the spell actually works. If it affected the caster, then he'd get a bonus to his Persuasion checks against any who would listen

 

* the way the 'hostility' is worded could make the reader think that the hostility is a.) magical in nature, and/or (worse) b.) can unerringly penetrate disguises. What should be made clear is that when the spell ends the target knows that an enchantment has been cast on their mind, and people usually really, really hate it when that happens, and react approriately

(Reply to #65)

Coredump00

ArialBlack wrote:
(Reply to #66)

ArialBlack

Coredump00 wrote:
#68

iserith

Jun 09, 2015 9:36:43

The way I handle friends is very simple.

 

As a player: If I feel like my interaction with an NPC is going to result in a Charisma ability check and I don't care if said NPC turns hostile (because they have no real ability to affect me or because I can make amends later or because I am in disguise), then this is a good spell to use. It is still possible in some cases to get a hostile creature to do things for you and it's often possible to get them to change their attitude. So while I may I have to work harder to win them over later, if the exigencies of my goals outweigh what I'll have to pay later to rectify the situation, then it's a fair enough trade.

 

As a DM: Per the guidelines for Social Interaction in the DMG (pages 244-245), "a hostile creature opposes the adventurers and their goals but doesn't necessarily attack them on sight." Like anything else I choose to do in the game, I have to weigh how interesting it might be to have an NPC made hostile by use of friends act against the PC's goals. In most cases, it may not be interesting, so the player will not suffer any immediate problem from using the cantrip. In other cases it may be interesting, so it might be a challenge for that PC, now or later. Also per the Social Interaction guidelines, a player can try to shift the attitude of the NPC later, so I will tend to leave the door open to this, if it makes sense in the fiction.

(Reply to #67)

Coredump00

ArialBlack wrote:
#70

Ilse

Jun 09, 2015 15:12:34

iserith wrote:
(Reply to #70)

Coredump00

Ilse wrote:
#72

Ilse

Jun 09, 2015 21:09:55

Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #69)

ArialBlack

Coredump00 wrote:
#74

Ilse

Jun 09, 2015 23:26:42

ArialBlack wrote:
(Reply to #74)

Macv12

Ilse wrote:
#76

Ilse

Jun 10, 2015 15:20:35

Macv12 wrote: