Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Phobos Dec 31, 2014 14:01:59	I have a few assorted questions, I'm unclear on after reading the books.   2 weapon attacks.  I see a feat which allows you to use more than just light weapons, but if I am understanding it, anyone can duel wield 2 light weapons correct, and attack twice?  Off hand weapon has no stat bonus to damage.   Training with Thieve's Tools is all that is required to pick locks, and disarm traps?  So, class x, with the proper tool training, can do so?   Bards, their Jack of all Trades skill does not give any tool training, is this correct?  I guess I assumed they would get some in addition to the skills.  I know, I can take a background to grab thieve's tools, but wanted to confirm.   Speaking of Bards, vocal is not a musical instrument?
#2 Cutlass Dec 31, 2014 16:43:05	I do not claim to be an expert but I think you have the right idea on two weapon fighting. However, the attack with the off hand weapon is a bonus action. So a character using two light weapons who gained the ability to make a second "attack" each round would only get 3 "attacks". The normal attack with the weapon in his primary hand, the second attack with the weapon in his primary hand, and finally the "bonus action" attack with the weapon in his off hand. He would not get 4 attacks (2 with each weapon). Finally, having used a bonus action to make an attack with his off hand weapon, he would not be able to take any other bonus actions that turn. Clear as mud? :-) Training with thieves' tools is all that is required to pick locks and disarm traps, so in theory any class could do it. Decent skill levels in Perception and Investigation would seem to be a good idea for a character that was going to do that a lot. Bards get training with three musical instruments, but do not automatically get training with thieves' tools. Talk to your DM to see if he would allow swapping an instrument proficiency for a thieves' tools proficiency. If not you'll have to pick it up from your background, a feat, or multiclassing. Whether or not "singing" would be considered to be a "musical instrument" is something I'm not sure of, but given the difference in singing abilities between the average guy off the street and professional singers I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that it was.
#3 jonathonhawke Dec 31, 2014 17:05:30	Tool proficiency can also be gained from training during downtime.   Performance skill would probably cover singing.
#4 guachi Dec 31, 2014 20:19:57	Jack of all Trades grants half proficiency to any ability check. Almost every d20 roll in the game is an ability check, saving throw, or attack roll and almost all of them have an ability score tied to it, except the death save.   If the tool proficiency has, in your mind, an ability score tied to that check then it's an ability check (because it's not likely it's a save or attack). In that case, the bard would add 1/2 proficiency to the check. To give you an idea of how powerful the Jack of all Trades ability is, it grants 1/2 proficiency to initiative checks as they are dex checks.   Example: Thieves' Tools are probably a Dex check. So a bard would get 1/2 proficiency if he wasn't already proficient.
#5 OoftaMeg Dec 31, 2014 17:37:34	Phobos wrote:
#6 Coredump00 Dec 31, 2014 18:18:37	IIRC, there is some discussion about who can use theives tools to unlock doors and deal with traps.  In one place it says anyone can use them, in another place it says you have to have proficiency....
(Reply to #6) OoftaMeg	Coredump00 wrote:
#8 Coredump00 Dec 31, 2014 21:09:53	That tweet is from Mearls.... so it can get 'more official'.  He has had a few of his rulings 'corrected'.  And since it says explicity in one of the books that you have to be proficient....  Hopefully an official FAQ/errata will arrive.
(Reply to #8) OoftaMeg	Coredump00 wrote:
#10 lawrencehoy Jan 01, 2015 7:59:08	OoftaMeg wrote:
#11 Coredump00 Jan 01, 2015 8:04:44	I believe someone mentioned it was also discussed in the DMG... but I am not sure where.
(Reply to #11) OoftaMeg	Coredump00 wrote:
#13 OoftaMeg Jan 01, 2015 8:28:56	I just double checked traps on page 121 of the DMG, proficiency in thieve's tools is not mentioned.
#14 Coredump00 Jan 01, 2015 8:39:10	Interesting, so there appears to be some consistency where traps anyone can attempt, but locks require proficiency.   Now.... the question is if this was intentional, or if the 'consistency' is just from an 'error' that got Cut an Pasted......   (I don't have an opinion.....)
#15 Macv12 Jan 01, 2015 9:56:24	Speaking of Bards, vocal is not a musical instrument?
#16 DungeonKrusher Jan 01, 2015 10:00:00	Speaking purely as a layman, I would suggest that tools aren't much help to picking a lock if you don't know what you're doing, but they would help with disarming a trap.   The concept of tumblers is the baseline for locks, but without training you're just putting sticks in a hole. You may get lucky, but the tools wouldn't be the deciding factor above any non-specific pokey item.   On the the other, it seems plausible you don't require training with tools to search for (or disarm) a trap -- assuming you're using the mirror to look for details, the pliers or scissors to cut strings, picks to disengage a switch.
(Reply to #15) Reius	Macv12 wrote:
#18 Sutekh1 Jan 01, 2015 21:49:59	As previously mentioned, a bard singing would fulfill the Vocal component of a spell. However, for Material components, a bard "can use a musical instrument (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus" for their spells. Handling the instrument essentially replaces handling material components, much like a cleric brandishing a holy symbol or wizard moving a wand for their focus. Bard spells with a verbal and material copmponent would require talking/singing and utilizing the instrument (or spell components). Allowing a bard to use their voice for both V and M components would give bards an incredible advantage compared to other casters, since technically all of their spells would only have V and S components (since M would also be a V). Spell components and Foci are meant to be physcical objects handled by the caster, and if taken from a caster (say captured) restrict casting spells with a M component.