Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Wulf2k Aug 14, 2015 12:46:55	MM P147 Possession (Recharge 6). ... The ghost now controls the body but doesn't deprive the target of awareness. The ghost can't be targeted by any attack, spell, or other effect, except ones that turn undead, and it retains its alignment, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and immunity to being charmed and frightened . It otherwise uses the possessed target's statistics, but doesn't gain access to the target's knowledge, class features, or proficiencies. Am I reading this right that even though the ghost can't be charmed, the body that it's inhabiting still can be?   The immunity to charm is in the same sentence as the "ghost can't be targeted by an attack", so I'm assuming that means that the ghost can't be targeted as a separate entity from the player. But this would also mean that the player is not immune to charm effects directly.   Can you charm a body possessed by a ghost?   Are there any rules I'm missing that would cover this, or is this one of those moments that just cause DMs to stare at you with that blank look?   Charmed • A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
#2 Bloodscythe Aug 14, 2015 13:43:21	Wulf2k wrote:
#3 Grazel Aug 14, 2015 13:46:45	That'd be up to the DM but I'd rule that you can't charm the body and it's original host as I treat possession as a form of charm and while they are aware the ghost's conciousness is in charge and therefore would be the only target for the charm spell. It's one of those cases where the wording of targetting for simplicity makes for a grey area with certain spells. The key reason for my reasoning is that the ghost uses the physical stats of the host body but still uses it's mental stats (wisdom, intelligence, charisma) which would imply that any spell that triggers a save on those falls under the ghost's immunities.   I do agree with Bloodscythe though that if you could charm the body it'd have no practical effect unless the ghost could be forced out of the body before the charm ends. in this case since the charm doesn't affect the ghost, who is in charge the attacking restriction of the charmed condition doesn't stop the ghost from attacking as it's the ghost in charge of the body, not the host, and therefore the ghost (attacker) isn't sufffering from the charmed effect, only the supressed host conciousness.
#4 Wulf2k Aug 14, 2015 13:53:45	What if we switched the status effect from charmed to paralyzed?   Can a ghost inhabit a paralyzed body and ignore the paralyzation since it's the "creature" that's paralyzed and not the ghost?   And just to take it to the extreme end of silliness, with rules as written, can a possessed creature ignore the grappled, restrained, and prone conditions since it's the "creature" that has those effects and not the ghost?   Disclaimer:  I'm interested in this as a thought exercise with the way these rules interact, not specifically in getting away with charming a ghost to protect myself.
(Reply to #3) Bloodscythe	Grazel wrote:
(Reply to #4) Bloodscythe	Wulf2k wrote:
#7 Wulf2k Aug 14, 2015 14:03:13	Grazel wrote:
(Reply to #7) Bloodscythe	Wulf2k wrote:
#9 Wulf2k Aug 14, 2015 14:14:02	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #9) Bloodscythe	Wulf2k wrote:
#11 Wulf2k Aug 14, 2015 14:34:13	I'm about to head out so won't be back to check this for a bit.   My only remaining pedantic objection, which I won't annoy anybody with by bothering to push harder, is that purely RAW the charmed status says the creature "can't attack the charmer".  If the ghost can still order the body to attack the charmer, then the ghost is a separate entity from "the creature" and not subject to that effect.  However, if it's not subject to 'that' effect, then it's not subject to 'any' effect on the body.  Purely Rules as Written.  The ghost gets its separate action that is not subject to the limitations of the body and no rule discriminates between the mental and physical portions of the creature.   If they'd ignored their whole weird rule section and just said the ghost controls the player's turn while granting him immunity to charm and fear, the rules would all fit fine.
#12 Wulf2k Aug 14, 2015 14:33:53	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #11) Bloodscythe	Wulf2k wrote:
#14 OoftaMeg Aug 14, 2015 14:37:42	With regards to such things as paralysis, I'd say that the ghost is immune, but the body is not. So paralysis (or poison or similar) would affect the body being possessed if it's a con save but not a wis save. Pretty much same for any other effect, a thundewave requires a con save. The ghost would be unaffected but the body it's possessing may be pushed back.
#15 Grazel Aug 15, 2015 16:35:30	You can think of ghost possession as being a form of the charmed condition. Just as charmed can put a creature under control of another being, the possession puts the creature under control of the ghost. I'd rule that that makes the possessed creature immune to charm just because it's in essense already charmed.   The only reason the ghost gets the physical stats of the possessed is because it's not in the body and takes on the body's traits. It is in essense being treated as one creature instead of two, with the physical stats of the host and the mental stats of the ghost as the ghost is the one "in control" while the host provides the physical body.   The Intellect Devourer works in much the same way, it retains it's mental stats while using Body Thief, but takes on the physical stats of it's host. However since it's physically inhabiting the host body instead of possessing it, it is specified as having total cover and concealment against attacks originating outside the host body because it still has it's own physical form inside the host so can be damaged directly, while the ghost lacks a physical body during possession so can't be targeted/damaged separately from the host body by physical attacks.