Hello there.
Math time, would love some input.
Is about fighting styles, i wil focus on a melee warrior and the "balance" between two-weapon fightning and great weapon fighting.
Did the math, and great weapon fighting in terms of damage is way better than two weapon fighting, even better if you consider using attuned magic weapons.(As a Great weapon fighter just use 1 of 3 "slots", and don't use your bonus action)
Where do i go? I think any of these would be a bit of improvement for TWF.
-The extra attack of the "offhand" is done as part of the attack action.
-The weapon you use on the "offhand" does't count toward the limit of 3 attuned objects per character.
The spreadsheet
First time doning D&D math, so would love any corrections)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kOGucjtq3dhqVS4EJ6Pt0rwIAa53lbz-_jskg5zXnhg/edit?usp=sharing
TWF is fine for a rogue as it gives you an extra chance for a Sneak Attack. TWF is fine for a Ranger as you can't actually take GWF fighting style as a Ranger. TWF is a weak option for a fighter, especially if you are 11+ level. TWF is really weak compared to GWF especially for a Champion fighter who takes the GW feat as your extra crit percentage really ups the frequency of bonus attacks.
What level are you talking about?
TWF = 2d6+3+3 = 13
GWF = 2d6+3+1.4 (style, incluing crts) = 11.4
Level 5
TWF = 3d6+3*4 = 22.5
GWF = 4d6+2*4 + 2*1.4 = 17.8 (+ an extra d6 on a crit).
Sure it eats your bonus action, but TWF uses Dex, and that comes with inititve and saves.
Also also, any damage boost, like.. hex, hunter's mark, divine favor, crusader's mantle, improved divine smite, ect... all work better with more attacks.
Though haste is better with GWF.
TWF is also good for a Dex-based fighter. since there aren't any two-handed (or even versatile) finesse weapons. (Though mellored just beat me to that point.)
I think some of these things are too complex to boil down to a spreadsheet. If you get into different dex based builds, multi classed fighter/rogues the different variations of fighter, etc it's not a simple comparison. You also need to take into consideration which feats are required and what other benefits there are.
I'm ok with a great weapon fighter doing a little more damage, dex based fighters are already much more powerful build overall to begin with. Dex based fighters have a better initiative, more skills affected, better reflex save and so on.
On the other hand, twinned flame blades might be kind of fun as a custom magic item.
There is one versatile finesse weapon that I know of, the Sun Blade. But without some sort of agreement with the DM that you would find/have one, I wouldn't make a dex based great weapon style fighter. Seems like a waste of the weapon style.
As for magic, you could create a 'pair' of weapons that operate as a single item, thus only requiring a single attunement.
OTOH, most regular magical weapons don't require attunement anyway.
The only way I would improve TWFing is remove the bonus action requirement and add +2 to hit when using a one-handed weapon and an empty off hand.
When I crunched the numbers, I found TWFing to be reasonably on par with GWFing (starting out a little higher, ending a little below) if you can get magic items. Most classes have a mechanic that benefits twfing: barbarian rage applies to bonus attack, paladin greater smite, ranger hunter's mark, rogue twfing. Fighters are left in the cold, though, as action surge doesn't grant a bonus action and multiple attacks favor gwfing.
I suggest adding +2 to onehanded weapon with empty offhand to 1) encourage the style and 2) incentivize the rogue to not use twfing.
Ultimately, I'd like to change The Great Weapon style to add half str mod to damage instead of rerollong 1s and 2s (to balance the greatsword and greataxe) and change two weapon style to half str or dex mod to damage on off hand. Then the greatsword and shortswords will be balanced. To balance magic items, I suggest adding one or two attunement slots BUT requiring all magic weapons and armor to be attuned. So the two weapon fighter could have two magic weapons, while the great weapon fighter could have a magic weapon and a belt of giant strength.
Don't let the naysayers discourage you from looking into the math. Damage isn't everything, but I do think the damage between different styles should be equal, all other things being equal. TWFing does allow more attacks to be exchanged for other attacks, like multiple pushes, which could mean something. Otherwise, it's damage should be comparable to gwfing.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Str and dex gwf are not equal in damage ability, so I disagree with that premise. Dex based gwf is weak, and str based twf is weak. That seems ok to me.
Dex characters resist grapples just fine, and they get the same AC if they don't mind moving slightly slower. They also have better ranged attacks. I think if gwf worked the same with dex, you'd see mostly dex fighters in char op.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
As for the ability to split damage, unless you are fighting opponents who have 7 or so hp, the fact that you can split your attacks better with two weapon fighting is moot. Splitting attacks is a terrible idea when foes aren't going down in one hit, as their offensive ability is at 100% until they're dead.
If attacks scaled differently, I'd say the ability to split attacks would be nice. If splitting attacks was like the difference between 2d8+5 vs one or 1d8+5 against two, like it was at one stage of the playtest, then twfing would have an advantage it could call its own. As of right now, it severely limits class options (fighters don't get bonus actions with action surge, barbarians can't frenzy and twf, paladins can't smite, rangers cant mark, certain feats sre off the table).
The way the twfing style works, though, makes it great at low levels and it quickly falls behind unless the dm is goving out magic weapons. This is another piece of evidence that leads me to believe that the designers have a magic item progression in mind.
How would TWF perform compared to other styles if instead of allowing stat mod on the offhand attacks, it allowed an offhand attack for every main attack.
Would this change much when you apply the relevant feats?
Xeviat-DM wrote:
And while that seems very powerful, it's going to do less that the Sorcelock that spams Eldritch Blast (X attacks at 1d8+mod, plus X attacks at 1d8, vs. 2x attacks at 1d10+mod, at range).
Noctaem wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I'm guessing the asterisk represents rerolling due to GWF?
Yunru wrote:
3 Rounds of attacking with greatsword and hunter's mark, lets say 5th level.
Round 1, Hunter's Mark as bonus, attack for 4d6*+3+2d6 (26.66 average)
Round 2, attack for 4d6*+3+2d6 (26.66 average)
Round 3, attack for 4d6*+3+2d6 (26.66 average)
Total: 80
3 Rounds of TWFing with shortswords and hunter's mark
Round 1, Hunter's Mark as bonus action, 2 attack for 2d6+3+2d6 (17 average)
Round 2, 4 attacks for 4d6+3+4d6 (31 average)
Round 3, 4 attacks for 4d6+3+4d6 (31 average)
Total: 79
3 Rounds of attacking with greatsword and hunter's mark, lets say 11th level.
Round 1, Hunter's Mark as bonus, attack for 6d6*+3+3d6 (38.5 average)
Round 2, attack for 6d6*+3+3d6 (38.5 average)
Round 3, attack for 6d6*+3+3d6 (38.5 average)
Total: 115.5
3 Rounds of TWFing with shortswords and hunter's mark
Round 1, Hunter's Mark as bonus action, 3 attacks for 3d6+3+3d6 (24 average)
Round 2, 6 attacks for 6d6+3+6d6 (45 average)
Round 3, 6 attacks for 6d6+3+6d6 (45 average)
Total: 114
Yunru wrote:
Yunru isn't adding the ability modifier to the extra attack.
What this is showing is that the extra gain from hunter's mark is canceling out the benefits of GWFing (which a ranger normally can't get without multiclassing; though an avenger paladin can). Without GWFing, it will be balanced against two-hander, as 2d6+ability equals 1d6+ability+1d6. Magic items will favor TWFing, but attunement will keep that from getting too out of hand.
But I don't think it balances against GWFing, as it gives no benefit until you get a second attack, no? Also, I don't see the benefit it is getting for having to spend their bonus action; MAYBE the ability to split attacks and avoid overkill is enough?
And do remember; outside of boss fights, the ranger is going to need to spend a bonus action to put hunter's mark on new targets, further hurting TWFing.
I think this would work:
Fighting Style, Two-weapon fighting besided the actual benefit, allows you to make one attack with your off-hand, as part as the attack action. You can't attack again with your offhand useing a bonus action.