Guidance broken? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 abs1nth Sep 28, 2014 13:14:52	Guidance (Divination Cantrip): Casting Time: 1 Action You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends. A d4 on basically all ability checks outside of combat?? WTF? That spells looks just like it's asking for trouble. How am I supposed to limit that as a DM? I'm thinking this spell should probably have a 10 minute casting time or something like that, it's rarely useful in combat anyway. Edit: Alternative idea: Make a DC 10 Wisdom check everytime you cast it if you fail, the spell fizzles and you can't cast it until you take a short or long rest.
#2 Novacat Sep 28, 2014 13:49:17	There's no need to limit it. It's statistically worse than using the Help action anyway.
#3 abs1nth Sep 28, 2014 13:57:28	Novacat wrote:
#4 Yunru Sep 28, 2014 14:02:16	You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn. Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.
(Reply to #4) abs1nth	Yunru wrote:
#6 Plaguescarred1 Sep 28, 2014 14:31:00	The guidance spell is pretty good buffer, even better so when the target can also benefit from the Help action as well!
#7 Rhenny Sep 28, 2014 14:33:07	Not broken. You have a 25% chance to add only +1. A 50% chance to add only +1 or +2. The game is more fun when PCs can succeed rather than fail. Let the cleric help others succeed. If the DM wants to keep something from the players set DC at 20 or 25. Personally, I like 80% of checks to be DC 10, only 15% to be DC 15, and the rare 5% to be DC 20. This is roughly the breakdown for the WotC adventures. Setting lower DCs and letting PCs succeed encourages players to try more interesting actions. Guidance helps encourage that too.
#8 Keendk Sep 28, 2014 14:52:05	It's good, and can be used in a lot of situations. It's got a few redeeming factors: its concentration, so if you cast it you break whatever other concentration spell you might want to have running. (Hex, conjure animals, detect magic etc) its concentration so you can only have it running on one target, which means that it is useless against reactionary rolls that anyone else but the target rolls. (I know these equate to at least 50% of my groups rolls) you need to know beforehand that the character is going to attempt a skill, so no good unless you are a mind reader, or very metagamey. you cast a spell to use it: "oh pelor, help my friend bluff the stupid city guard" you cast a spell to use it 2: we all sneak past the guard, cleric:"OH PELOR, thank you for letting us sneak past the guard, now help my friend pick this lock!" Not very stealthy. It takes an action to cast and has 5' range...not the greatest when trying to use all your speed to run away from the boulder chasing you. (Or other time issue challenges) So no it's not "basically all ability tests out of combat", it's everything that you can prepare for without being under time pressure or observation from potential victims. So it's slightly more limited than the help action, but can give some great synergy when it can apply.
#9 Noctaem Sep 28, 2014 14:52:06	abs1nth wrote:
#10 Novacat Sep 28, 2014 14:57:16	Noctaem wrote:
#11 mellored Sep 28, 2014 15:21:13	Something that is often overlooked is that it's a concentration check. So that breaks everything else, including if your using bless.
#12 abs1nth Sep 28, 2014 15:35:41	Keendk wrote:
#13 Novacat Sep 28, 2014 15:57:39	Guidance isn't "free." You're forgetting about the opportunity cost of taking the cantrip, of which the cleric has only a few. And as it has been stated, it's not much, if at all better than the Help action, which anyone can do.
#14 mattdm Sep 28, 2014 18:27:56	Compare to bards' Jack of All Trades — much more reliable, doesn't take an extra action or require someone to use up a cantrip slot.
(Reply to #14) Judou_Hanabi	mattdm wrote:
#16 iserith Sep 28, 2014 19:29:26	Do you actually see it used a lot in your game, abs1nth, or is this just speculative concern? If you are seeing it used a lot in your game, consider that you might be asking for too many ability checks. Do the actions being taken really have an uncertain outcome and a chance for interesting failure? If not, just say actions succeed and move on until you come to a dramatic situation where an ability check really is called for and the guidance spell will make more sense to be used. Rather than spammed by the cleric because the DM is asking for ability checks for every little thing.
(Reply to #12) Ashrym	abs1nth wrote:
#18 Keendk Sep 28, 2014 22:55:44	"You can easily get around that by having PCs announce what they are going to do. Totally makes sense when your Cleric actually has the powers of a limitless wishing well." Your cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because....etc circular arguments are fun. You seem to allow meta gaming at your table to a very high degree, and so you must accept the consequences that some spells are not designed with that in mind. If your character can announce before making a knowledge check that they want to remember a fact or that people casting spells in social situations is totally acceptable...then yes guidance is Overpowered. "Reactionary rolls are less prevalent in my game but you could still keep one Guidance rolling at all time. Ok, so you can't use it when you need to be absolutely quiet." I also not that you write "you could" instead of, "my player keeps". It's highly obvious that you haven't actually seen this cantrip in play and that this is all white room theory crafting on your behalf. Try it out on probation, and if you think it's still bad when your players reach level 5, ask the player to change it.
#19 slaughterj Sep 28, 2014 23:01:26	Yunru wrote:
#20 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 29, 2014 0:42:43	Yes, Guidance is better than many class features. And worse, there's nothing interesting about '+2.5 to anything you were going to do outside combat'. What our DM said was 'okay, if you use Guidance, all the DCs go up by 5'.
#21 Novacat Sep 29, 2014 0:50:41	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#22 Keendk Sep 29, 2014 1:04:55	Novacat wrote:
#23 Novacat Sep 29, 2014 1:11:40	What I would probably do, if I were in that campaign (and determined not to quit), would be to play a cleric of the god of trickery, and use Guidance all the time. Like, really try to abuse it. As a player, I know full well that, at best, I'm only hurting our chances a little, since the bonus from Guidance can't ever fully cancel out the increased DC. As a character, though, I wouldn't seem to ever realize that my deity is screwing with us.
#24 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 29, 2014 1:16:24	Nah, I totally agree with him, and in fact pointed Guidance out as something I would abuse if it was in. Because there is nothing to keep you from doing so, just keep touching yourself every minute if nothing's going on. Sure, it does not apply to all checks ever, but there's a mess ton of stuff that doesn't take longer than a minute to do. It is only balanced if all you do is combats.
#25 Novacat Sep 29, 2014 1:23:34	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#26 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 3:26:34	mattdm wrote:
#27 FrogReaver Sep 29, 2014 3:24:04	Hmmmm well that's where my post went!! Thanks for finding it.
#28 Novacat Sep 29, 2014 2:05:45	FrogReaver wrote:
#29 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 29, 2014 2:25:28	Novacat wrote:
#30 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 3:17:38	iserith wrote:
#31 RCanine Sep 29, 2014 3:42:24	Yeah, IME guidance is far more powerful than your average cantrip. For a couple reasons: It stacks with pretty much everything It allows your character to contribute to everything skill-based There's practically no opportunity cost outside of combat That said, I'm not sure it's actually a problem. It's super fun for your character to feel useful. Failing skill-based stuff is often a drag anyway (only the very best DMs run skill-based encounters well).
#32 mister__joshua Sep 29, 2014 3:52:23	abs1nth wrote:
#33 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 4:10:28	mister__joshua wrote:
(Reply to #33) FrogReaver	abs1nth wrote:
#35 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 4:54:09	Ok, I've got a different idea. While I like the idea of the Wisdom check and losing the spell till you rest, the problem is that it breaks the rules of cantrips. The problem with Guidance is really that it casts too wide of a net. If it was more specific it would require player awareness and thus turn it into more of an active ability like help. It would feel less like a passive, busy-work thing but more something you earned through a combination of class abilities and clever play. What if Guidance only allowed you to give a d4 for skills the caster had proficiency in? The problem would be that the target may not know the proficiencies of the caster but I think this will solve itself because typically Guidance is used reactively out of combat anyway and should it be applied just in case for 1min the caster could simply make it his role to pay attention when a compatible skill is used and then notify the target. It would make Guidance more in line with other cantrips and turn it into an active spell that requires the caster to pay attention to gain its benefits.
#36 Uthrac Sep 29, 2014 6:38:26	Are PCs succeeding at skill checks really breaking anyone's game? As pointed out above, as a concentration spell, you can only have this going at one PC at a time. And whether or not there is advanced notice before attempting a skill check (such as knowledge) would be up to the DM.
(Reply to #33) mister__joshua	abs1nth wrote:
#38 iserith Sep 29, 2014 7:04:42	abs1nth wrote:
#39 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 7:14:15	Uthrac wrote:
#40 Ard3 Sep 29, 2014 7:15:27	If you are concerned about Guidance stacking with everything one idea to limit it while still keeping it useful is that you can use it instead of proficiency bonus. At early levels it can offer a minor boost to skills you are proficient on a good roll and always help on the skills you arent proficient in. At higher levels as proficiency increases it loses significance on those checks but can still help in a pinch with unproficient skills. Havent been able to play yet but to me it seems fine as it is now.
#41 Uthrac Sep 29, 2014 8:18:32	abs1nth wrote:
#42 Novacat Sep 29, 2014 8:27:15	abs1nth wrote:
#43 iserith Sep 29, 2014 9:04:08	Novacat wrote:
#44 dwgautier Sep 29, 2014 9:31:35	Guidance is not broken at all. As many people have mentioned it takes concentration so any long term buffs would drop (there will be some at mid and higher levels). What a DM can do though is make sure the players are not abusing it. For example if the DM ask for an ablity check the DM should NOT allow the player to cast guidence before hand. Guidence needs to be player initiated. Example, if the DM ask the players to roll a dex check because the ground is crumbling under their feet then no guidance. Or if the DM ask the player to roll an Int check to see if they recognize the cut purse from earlier in the adventure that stole from the party, then no guidance. Another limit a DM could impose is when a player without guidance says he is doing an ablity check but didnt ask the cleric for guidance then too bad when the cleric says, 'wait! let me cast guidance!!!'. It will be a good lesson for the player to think before they act. If the players say, I want to climb the wall but first I'll cast guidance on myself, then thats a great use of the spell. Will it get redundant? Hell yes, but it lets the player feel like they are really adding something of value to the party.
#45 Keendk Sep 29, 2014 9:50:09	dwgautier wrote:
#46 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 10:24:02	Novacat wrote:
#47 dwgautier Sep 29, 2014 10:44:58	dwgautier wrote:
#48 iserith Sep 29, 2014 11:18:07	abs1nth wrote:
#49 dwgautier Sep 29, 2014 11:24:48	A house rule I use for players that constantly cast concentration spells of short duration (over and over and over again) is to make constitution Saving Throws or get one level of exhaustion. The DC starts low, very low, at 5. But after each casting the DC goes up by 1. What is nice about this is it stops players from stoping ever 10 mins to cast a ritual or as in the example Iserith just gave, stops players from having perma guidance up at all times. There is using your tool belt, and then there is using your tool belt until all your tools are dull....
#50 iserith Sep 29, 2014 11:31:42	I still think it's the DM's approach that is causing the player to think this is how guidance is used. There's pretty much no reason to constantly have guidance in effect unless the DM is surprising the players with ability checks when they haven't really stated an action. That surprise often comes out of bad scene framing and a poor application of the basic conversation of the game. Before applying some kind of "fix" to punish the player for smart play, consider examining your approach as DM.
#51 Keendk Sep 29, 2014 11:32:28	Absinth, just out of curiosity: How do you handle the "help" action out of combat? Whatever the answer is, that is exactly my how you should handle guidance. My group don't need to handle it as it works for us as written (concentration being hugely important for us), but this is obviously an issue for you so you are going to need to houserule it. I found your idea about letting it be trained profs only interesting, but it does remove the miraculous aspect of the spell.
#52 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 12:01:34	Keendk wrote:
#53 dwgautier Sep 29, 2014 12:27:31	iserith wrote:
#54 iserith Sep 29, 2014 12:40:26	dwgautier wrote:
#55 dwgautier Sep 29, 2014 12:58:56	I too feel that guidance isnt an abusive spell, unless it is ran 24/10 (this is forgotten realms after all). Any time a player says, "I recast a spell every X mins" a red flag goes up for a DM. Speaking of which, Iserith, have you ever been a DM? If not you might want to try it to give you some perspective.
#56 iserith Sep 29, 2014 13:12:48	dwgautier wrote:
#57 BW0222 Sep 29, 2014 13:33:22	If one realistically looks at cases where ability and skill checks are made... casting guidance even a small minority, isn't realistic. Any long term check is ruled out by the duration. If crafting, practicing a profession, climbing an extremely tall cliff, training an animal, etc. could take minutes, hours, days, or weeks. No caster is going to stand over a smith casting over and over again. Many other checks are ruled out by the fact that the caster can't necessarily be with you. If a rogue is climbing a large cliff... unless you are climbing with him... you can't help him other than maybe the initial 15' or so. Same with swimming, stealth, disguise, deception, etc. Using handle animal to calm a bear down is usually defeated by having a spell caster waving their arms and making stange sounds. Any type of reaction or unknown check is pretty much ruled out. Unless you know someone is going to be making a perception check... it is pointless following them around town casting guidance over and over just in case they need a perception check to see some red curtains in a window. Reactions are also typically unknown... making a handle animal check to control your mount, making an athletics check to grap a rope when you fall, etc. Kind of hard to predict which PC might need to make the check. Many in-dungeon, social, or other situtation... checks are foiled by spellcasting. Stealth is usually defeated by the sounds of spellcasting. The major and his staff are highly likely to react negatively to spell casting before one character starts taking. Rather than get a bonus to persausion, he is more likely to get a bonus to deception to explain what that spell was, followed by a disadvantage to the check as the major is alreadly negatively disposed to you. Most rogues want to open locks and find traps quietly... not spellcasting to alert those behind the door or down the hallway.
#58 dwgautier Sep 29, 2014 13:36:25	You have this blame the DM attitude that is really off putting. Both parties have equal share in equal fun for everyone. Congrats on having 11,000 plus post?
#59 Noctaem Sep 29, 2014 13:49:33	dwgautier wrote:
#60 jackbytor Sep 29, 2014 14:06:08	I'm glad I found this thread. The cleric in my group just rolls a d4 automatically along with his d20 for all ability checks. For him, it's standard operating procedure. I was wondering on whether or not to DM fiat this. It may not be game breaking, but it sure looks that way from my other players point of view, considering he only uses it on himself most of the time. Not a huge deal, but it is a tad annoying. Seems I'll have to keep a better eye on things.
#61 iserith Sep 29, 2014 14:10:30	dwgautier wrote:
#62 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 14:20:36	Noctaem wrote:
#63 iserith Sep 29, 2014 14:29:17	abs1nth wrote:
(Reply to #62) Noctaem	abs1nth wrote:
#65 dwgautier Sep 29, 2014 14:31:58	Of course, both of those approaches are not in keeping with the way the game actually works even though I've seen both approaches in play an awful lot. I've seen them mentioned in this very thread. Perhaps it's time we consider our approaches as DMs to not be in keeping with how the game is intended to be run and that how we're choosing to do things is producing the very results we don't want to see. Because when I run a session according to the basic conversation of the game, I don't have these issues. *No cleric ever has chosen to spam guidance* and not because I create disincentives to do so or call them out for being abusive.** [/quote] If that is true then you have a great community to throw dice with. In organized play this is not a common thing. Players and DMs come to events with bad habbits that lower the quality of play for everyone. Through positive critiquing (like I assume you are trying to do with me? Not needed, ty though. If we were in person and setting at a table I would love to hear your input about my DMing style) we can help other players try to game in a less abusive enviroment. DM's that run tables for the average player in organized play settings have to handle abusive players all the time. It is a noble goal to think that your benevolent approach is that effective on others... but you can't reach them all and sometimes you have to make rules against these abusive players. You could have Gandhi or MLK running a table and some people would still try to push abuse in the rules on them. When this happens at my tables, and I would be a lier if I said it didnt happens once in awhile, I make the rulling and ask the player to wait until after the gaming session to talk it out. So in closing, because I think I've gotten all I can out of this thread, Is guidance broken? Depends on how its used and how you define broken. I'm lumping broken in with disruptive and abusive. Simple put, if the player stats he is using guidiance to start an ability check then I think the spell is fun and a great tool for divine casters. If it is a roll that the player did not initiate (or did not have time to cast the spell but the player still rolls the 1d4) then I think its an abuse and not fun for the table.
#66 iserith Sep 29, 2014 14:46:11	dwgautier wrote:
#67 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 15:14:52	iserith wrote:
#68 Yunru Sep 29, 2014 15:25:18	abs1nth wrote:
#69 Noctaem Sep 29, 2014 15:36:40	Yeah as a DM you WANT to give information to your players, why is that even a problem?
(Reply to #67) Rhenny	abs1nth wrote:
#71 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 15:59:53	abs1nth wrote:
#72 Yunru Sep 29, 2014 16:00:56	abs1nth wrote:
(Reply to #71) Rhenny	abs1nth wrote:
#74 Yunru Sep 29, 2014 16:09:54	Oh look, replace all but the first "I cast Guidance" with "I continued to pray to my god for guidance" and no-one gets annoyed.
#75 abs1nth Sep 29, 2014 16:13:01	Yunru wrote:
#76 FrogReaver Sep 29, 2014 17:32:53	Yea bless as a reaction is a problem. However always keeping bless on a single character should work fine. It isn't overpowered and it gives a nice buff. i especially liked the cleric concept of the cleric who constantly pray and keeps himself blessed. Good use of the skill by that player.
#77 iserith Sep 29, 2014 18:08:08	abs1nth wrote:
#78 MykeSchultz Sep 29, 2014 23:53:21	Two players have Guidance in my party. I don't notice it making things too easy (for example, last session 3 people died). My problem with it is, A. I'm tired of saying to the DM, "I'm casting Guidance." Yet, I can't help myself. B. If you can take "Guidance," then its practically a must take. And I dislike any game elements that are must takes. Also, my bet is, rightly, or wrongly, if you constantly cast Guidance all the time, then you're going to eventaully Poff the dm. (our dm doesn't quite fully understand how good Guidance is, yet). In all, my problem with it is more so an argument from "wonkiness," than an argument from mechanics. Yet, I think there should be a good cantrip buff spell. I guess if it was up to me, I'd make it so one could only benefit from it once, until a short rest. Edit: But then again, short rest probably wouldn't make much difference, and long rest would probably be too much of a nerf imo.
#79 Keendk Sep 29, 2014 23:37:02	Iserith that's all well and good, and it's nice to see your style if DMing and hope it will inspire people to play the same way. BUT that's not how the OP plays, and it would be wrong to forc him to play on your premises, also it seems his players might not be very old or experienced so that is a factor as well. If would suggest you (absinth) allow the cantrip as is, and if a player takes it explain to them that you have some strong reservations about the cantrip and you personally think it's bland and catch all. Say that it's on trial up front and if you don't like the way it's used/abused then you might put some heavier limitations on it, and invite the player to help you think of any such limits...offer you guidance if you will. This way, hopefully, the player might hold back on cheese and if not you have warned before the cantrip was even taken. That is of course if you are in fact the DM and not the wizard just moaning about another player, seriously that wizard has anger management issues.
#80 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 30, 2014 0:07:37	Noctaem wrote:
#81 RPGBG Sep 30, 2014 2:26:57	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#82 Zardnaar Sep 30, 2014 3:00:27	Yes its broken IMHO. I just tell my DM I constantly cast it every minute on the next dexterity check. You can use it to buff most skill checks outside combat and a high dexterity cleric with the criminal back ground can often out perform a rogue. Our Druid has seen me using it with my light cleric and now her Druid is doing the same thing I am recasting it every minute for dexterity checks which really means initiative. Bless is also broken IMHO as it out classes every other level 1 cleric spell including domain spells like faerie fire. I'm starting to use bless in level 2 spell slots to bless 4 members of the party and once I used it in a level 3 spell slot to bless the entire party. Both spells should have been a static +2 modifier or a +1 modifer cast as a bonus action. Its just a pure player entitlement spell continuing recent trends of failure should be minimized. Its straight from the care bear book of healing for 5E.
#83 2Chlorobutanal Sep 30, 2014 3:00:24	Imagine your daily life. Imagine how disruptive it would be to have an alarm set to go off every minute, and when the alarm goes off, you have to stop what you're doing and hold your breath or count backward or something for 6 seconds. I would not use guidance "every minute" because it would destroy any sense of realism or immersion in my gaming experience, just to get +2.5 to an initiative roll. Pretty much any other application of guidance can involve the spell being cast as appropriate. Your rogue is climbing a dangerous cliff? Pray for some guidance first. etc, etc. Outside of combat and social interactions, many skill checks can be done as "take 20" anyway, so unless the task is just barely too hard to complete without guidance, the spell won't make much of a difference. In combat, +2.5 to a skill check seems like it's perfectly reasonably costed at 1 action.
#84 Yunru Sep 30, 2014 3:04:09	Hwll even if you constantly recast it in a dungeon or something, that's not breaking immersion. The only time the immersion is broken is when there's no logical reason not to consult your god for guidance. In a dungeon potentially crawling with monsters? Guidance. Attempting to solve a complex puzzle lock? Guidance. Enjoying a picknick in a field... no.
#85 Zardnaar Sep 30, 2014 3:07:13	Yunru wrote:
#86 Yunru Sep 30, 2014 3:10:30	Well if you want to play up your character being that paranoid, good for you. Basically the only time immersion can't be preserved thanks to RP is when there's no chance of a skill check within the duration known to the characters.
#87 Zardnaar Sep 30, 2014 3:16:19	Yunru wrote:
#88 abs1nth Sep 30, 2014 5:48:16	Noctaem wrote:
#89 Pangur Sep 30, 2014 6:01:52	RPGBG wrote:
#90 iserith Sep 30, 2014 6:03:39	Keendk wrote:
#91 iserith Sep 30, 2014 6:05:48	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#92 abs1nth Sep 30, 2014 6:34:00	iserith wrote:
#93 iserith Sep 30, 2014 7:08:07	abs1nth wrote:
#94 abs1nth Sep 30, 2014 7:17:26	iserith wrote:
#95 dwgautier Sep 30, 2014 7:12:11	A DM can just use passive skills to stop guidence from being used so much.
#96 iserith Sep 30, 2014 7:20:45	abs1nth wrote:
#97 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 30, 2014 7:23:45	iserith wrote:
#98 Pangur Sep 30, 2014 7:32:02	abs1nth wrote:
#99 iserith Sep 30, 2014 7:36:15	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#100 abs1nth Sep 30, 2014 7:48:53	Pangur wrote:
#101 Nachturnus Sep 30, 2014 8:52:08	It's RAW. It's silly. As a DM, I'd require the player to have a ~very~ good explanation for their character's behavior, and even then, 2.5 isn't a huge deal to me for simple ability checks (or even initiative really) Yes, it's a cantrip, and it's good, but it's really not going to break the game, especially considering you either need to start as cleric, or have 15 wis and spend a level to get it. It's got limited usability for most classes as a result, and probably won't be game-breaking in most situations.
#102 iserith Sep 30, 2014 8:57:05	Nachturnus wrote:
#103 FFSAA Sep 30, 2014 9:05:43	Yes, you can pretty much auto-suceed checks outside of combat. Guidance + Bless = +2d4, help action = advantage, bard +d6 - +d12. The bard alone is pretty much auto-succeed, the extra 5 and advantage from guideance and bless is just bonus.
#104 bawylie Sep 30, 2014 9:21:52	I have some new players who came off what I consider a bad DM. I'm having to sort of retrain them out of an extreme risk-mitigation behavior. Their former DM ran the game as a process SIM & these two folks are constantly angling to make "favored" rolls and only then when they've thoroughly calculated and maximized their odds of success. Theyre getting used to hearing "Guys, there's no roll for this. It just happens/doesn't work." And Im getting less "Can I roll arcana?" etc. It still happens and I have to ask "Why? What are you doing that I might want the result of an Arcana test?" But it's getting better. I'll have 'em right in a month or so.
#105 kalil Sep 30, 2014 9:34:02	IMHO guidance is insanely overpowered and immensely annoying in actual play. All in all a very bad piece of game design.
#106 Uthrac Sep 30, 2014 10:04:42	You want to know what's broken? Sacred Flame. Every time the PCs encounter an empty corridor or room, the cleric casts Sacred Flame at each empty square to determine whether there is anything invisible hiding. It breaks the game, because nothing invisible ever goes unnoticed. Please help me fix this entirely broken cantrip. Thank you.
(Reply to #104) eleran	bawylie wrote:
#108 Nachturnus Sep 30, 2014 10:37:50	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #106) eleran	Uthrac wrote:
#110 iserith Sep 30, 2014 10:39:52	eleran wrote:
#111 iserith Sep 30, 2014 10:46:12	Nachturnus wrote:
#112 Zardnaar Sep 30, 2014 11:02:52	Its not like your god can take your spells away from you in this edition. Spam guidance there is noo real mechanical downside to it. Its like being proficinet in every skill i hte game and having expertise in all of your trained skills.
(Reply to #107) bawylie	eleran wrote:
(Reply to #113) eleran	bawylie wrote:
(Reply to #16) crimfan07	iserith wrote:
#116 Otakkun Sep 30, 2014 14:20:53	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#117 Yunru Sep 30, 2014 14:24:33	Otakkun wrote:
#118 iserith Sep 30, 2014 14:49:04	crimfan07 wrote:
#119 RCanine Sep 30, 2014 18:13:34	I see the Guidance problem a lot in Organized Play. In those situations, failing a skill check will often lead to loss of rewards, and since rewards are capped and very specific, players do their best amount of cheesing any die roll they have to make in order to ensure they don't "miss anything." They'll also do massive RP backbends trying to prevent their characters from taking any action that doesn't involve a skill they are specialized in. This is a symptom of the issue: Zardnaar wrote:
#120 iserith Sep 30, 2014 18:17:12	It also sounds like in OP, you're only succeeding because you roll well rather than because you removed uncertainty through clever play.
#121 RCanine Sep 30, 2014 18:32:17	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #20) crimfan07	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#123 Zardnaar Sep 30, 2014 20:35:10	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #111) 2Chlorobutanal	iserith wrote:
#125 Noon Sep 30, 2014 21:55:37	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
(Reply to #124) FrogReaver	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#127 iserith Oct 01, 2014 5:50:38	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #119) Timborama	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #127) 2Chlorobutanal	iserith wrote:
#130 iserith Oct 01, 2014 18:41:29	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #130) 2Chlorobutanal	This is an artificial distinction to me. There is no sharp divide between "DM" and "person." There is no functional difference between saying "You can't cast guidance anymore right now" and narrating that "you cast guidance for the 15th time in 10 minutes, but it seems to have no effect - your divine insight is suddenly absent." In fact, the first case can easily be implemented as the second, if people get uptight about "being told no" but are somehow more comfortable with the game being narrated to circument their wishes. When I play, we understand that if the DM says "you can't do this," there is a reason for it. The reason may be a story-based reason or a balance/fun-based reason, but in either case, we accept it and move on pretty easily. In fact, it's easy to manufacture story-based reasons as to why we "can't" do anti-fun things, such as the example of the spell failing to work, or a cleric having reservations about "squandering" his divine gifts by casting spells so often. However, unless it becomes necessary to explain these things fully, most people are fine with simply saying "you can't do that." Saying "I always cast guidance all the time" is really no different than telling a player "you can't always cast guidance all the time." They both are making abstract assumptions about a character's "default" actions for the sake of brevity and fun. However, in one case, the "always having guidance" could complicate matters- by shifting the power level of the game, for example, or creating disbelief in the "realism" of a character that spends 10% of his or her waking time casting spells during daily life. In this case, I think it's much simpler and more elegant to say "you can't do that all the time, save that spell for good opportunities." Having a +2.5 on a character sheet generally shouldn't be more exciting or fun than getting to cast a spell that helps you or your friends succeed. Saying "I cast guidance all the time" is similar to saying "I walk around with a Readied action to attack anyone who starts a fight." I think it's best to leave these situations out of the game, because the game will play more smoothly and dynamically if decision-making is more important. It also reduces the burden of mental juggling required by players as well as streamlining encounters. In the end, it's going to be a wash to implement these behaviors anyway, as why would only one character in a game world choose to use such an obviously superior tactic? While you're at it, why not describe how your character with crafting proficiency makes a modern assault rifle- after all, you could adequately describe the process if given time to research it, and magic could certainly create sufficient materials and level of craftsmanship. This would give him or her a massive range and rate-of-attack advantage over every other character in the game world, but sometimes, it's better to limit ourselves for the fun of the game.
#132 Noon Oct 01, 2014 19:59:12	Social contracts will vary. In some social contracts the DM can just say no. Trying to argue that actually the DM can't do that, in such a case, is silly. You can try to argue someone into changing their social contract. But as an argument just trying to tell someone their social contract is what you say it is - that'd be silly.
#133 Pangur Oct 01, 2014 23:48:42	abs1nth wrote:
#134 FrogReaver Oct 02, 2014 0:33:05	So I've seen alot of posts about how it's wrong to spam guidance. Can I get some examples of when using guidance would be appropriate. Like if a party comes to a broken bridge. They can try to jump across the bridge or go some other way. Cleric uses guidance on first guy he jumps. He uses guidance on the next guy and he jumps and so on... Is that guidance spam or a legitimate use of it? If you are looking for a hidden door the cleric might cast guidance on the wizard to help find it (investigate). After it's find the may cast it on the rogue to help see if it's trapped. He may then cast it again on the rogue to help disarm the trap. He may then cast it on the fighter to bash open the door instead of trying to find the switch. Is that a legitimate use or is that guidance spam? IMO all those uses of guidance I just stated is exactly how every player is going to play it (unless he has a strong roleplay reason to do otherwise). Is this what you all think is overpowered and shouldnt be allowed? If so are you all suggesting that a DM is wrong by allowing for skill checks in these situations (those of you who are blaming the DM for his DM style as the reason why he thinks guidance is overpowered)? Are you suggesting the PC's should automatically succeed or fail in these situations? Further, why do you expect the cleric not to cast it in situations like the examples I provided?
#135 DracoSuave Oct 02, 2014 1:34:51	Let's see, Guidance is useful, has a power level that remains useful across all levels, and is spammable. If this weren't fifth edition, I'd consider that a problem. This is fifth edition, however, and I think a lot of the resistance to Guidance is comparisons to previous edition and their cantrip levels--it seems to me a lot of the same nonsense Spoony did in his review of Fifth Edition when talking about cantrips. Cantrips are supposed to be decent now. And, it's not like Clerics have a lot of cantrip options. Obviously this is going to look great in comparison to their list of pants.
#136 DracoSuave Oct 02, 2014 1:34:54	Let's see, Guidance is useful, has a power level that remains useful across all levels, and is spammable. If this weren't fifth edition, I'd consider that a problem. This is fifth edition, however, and I think a lot of the resistance to Guidance is comparisons to previous edition and their cantrip levels--it seems to me a lot of the same nonsense Spoony did in his review of Fifth Edition when talking about cantrips. Cantrips are supposed to be decent now. And, it's not like Clerics have a lot of cantrip options. Obviously this is going to look great in comparison to their list of pants.
#137 Strill Oct 02, 2014 2:36:37	Nachturnus wrote:
(Reply to #137) AaronOfBarbaria	Strill wrote:
#139 Zardnaar Oct 02, 2014 5:38:04	Strill wrote:
#140 iserith Oct 02, 2014 6:25:36	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#141 iserith Oct 02, 2014 7:03:25	FrogReaver wrote:
#142 abs1nth Oct 02, 2014 8:15:55	iserith wrote:
#143 iserith Oct 02, 2014 8:36:56	abs1nth wrote:
#144 iserith Oct 02, 2014 8:36:15	abs1nth wrote:
#145 Pangur Oct 02, 2014 8:36:16	abs1nth wrote:
(Reply to #141) FrogReaver	iserith wrote:
#147 iserith Oct 02, 2014 8:57:15	FrogReaver wrote:
#148 DracoSuave Oct 02, 2014 9:49:46	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#149 Uthrac Oct 02, 2014 9:57:42	FrogReaver wrote:
#150 DracoSuave Oct 02, 2014 10:12:49	About the only thing Guidance can do, in my recollection, that is actually potentially 'Broken' is casting it on an assassin rogue before a combat begins. [It works on Initiative checks] And that depends on your view of 'broken'. Still wouldn't allow recasts for 'a better roll' tho, for flavor reasons.
#151 Nachturnus Oct 02, 2014 10:37:38	DracoSuave wrote:
(Reply to #151) DracoSuave	Nachturnus wrote:
#153 Nachturnus Oct 02, 2014 10:40:07	DracoSuave wrote:
(Reply to #87) Bloodscythe	Zardnaar wrote:
#155 iserith Oct 02, 2014 10:59:57	Uthrac wrote:
#156 RCanine Oct 02, 2014 11:10:33	FrogReaver wrote:
#157 iserith Oct 02, 2014 11:22:21	Bloodscythe wrote:
#158 iserith Oct 02, 2014 11:31:56	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #147) FrogReaver	iserith wrote:
#160 iserith Oct 02, 2014 12:00:14	FrogReaver wrote:
#161 FrogReaver Oct 02, 2014 12:15:32	Simple player method to always get guidance. Everyone always asks cleric to guidance them before doing anything. Thats what your methods will lead to.
#162 iserith Oct 02, 2014 12:28:59	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #162) FrogReaver	iserith wrote:
#164 iserith Oct 02, 2014 12:40:57	FrogReaver wrote:
#165 FrogReaver Oct 02, 2014 12:46:33	I don't think there is onone but based on your previous posts I assumed u would have an issue with that.
#166 iserith Oct 02, 2014 12:51:22	FrogReaver wrote:
#167 abs1nth Oct 02, 2014 13:49:40	iserith wrote:
#168 iserith Oct 02, 2014 13:58:52	abs1nth wrote:
(Reply to #168) FrogReaver	iserith wrote:
#170 FrogReaver Oct 02, 2014 15:20:46	I propose we discuss guidance being used in time constraint situations which are likely to require checks. Is guidance broken or over powered in tht subset of uses?
#171 DracoSuave Oct 02, 2014 16:40:31	Create situations where guidance is certainly useful, but where there is enough pressure that the party cannot wait for a spam-cast situation. For example--the party needs to cross a large spike-filled pit. No pressure. As soon as a single player crosses it, it triggers a combat on the other side of the pit. The character on the other side cannot handle this combat alone, and so there is a sense of urgency. During a tense negotiation with a duke/whatever, have it noticed that one person is only casting spells. Have it give the negotiator disadvantage on his roll, because said important npc distrusts magic that he cannot see. Last group of adventurers cast friends on him, you see... Climbing a wall, and the floor is now lava. Then give them situations where spamcasting guidance is okay... but doesn't have a huge impact. 'Okay, you cast guidance on the guy, he makes his investigation roll, and you find my plot device. Excellent.' Failure would have meant the device was found but a trap triggered. Lastly, give a situation where spamcasting guidance is not only okay... but it's absolutely impactful in the success. 'Good job guys. You've disabled the eldritch machine without it exploding and destroying all of Breland, including your families and loved ones. Good thing you had Avarone and Windpipe there. Guidance and Bardic Inspiration for the win!'
#172 iserith Oct 02, 2014 16:52:13	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #169) DracoSuave	FrogReaver wrote:
#174 FrogReaver Oct 02, 2014 17:53:51	Why all time constraints listed assume party is in combat?
#175 obsid Oct 02, 2014 18:39:59	Here is how I would handle it. Cleric: "I wish to cast guidence on myself every minute." DM: "Ok... you are on the road for the last hour, you have been casting guidence every minute, after 60 times of casting it, you get the feeling that your god doesnt want you to waste the gifts he gives you." If they still keep doing it, some NPC follower of the same god might show up later very angry at the cleric.... eventually it may just stop working for a while ("You try, but it doesnt seem to work anymore...", temporary and comes back and starts working again later). If they want to use guidence right before they do a skill check (like some knowledge check or something) thats fine, thats the point of the spell. But if the trap that they didnt know about drops on thier head, they shouldnt have guidence up and ready to go in advance.
#176 Noon Oct 02, 2014 19:24:58	Seems most people are annoyed at how it gets a bonus without having to deal with the fiction to get it. Just pure system use - worse, pure system use that gives an advantage over the fiction. Blasphemy!
#177 RCanine Oct 02, 2014 20:31:41	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #173) Ashrym	DracoSuave wrote:
#179 FluffyBunbunKittens Oct 02, 2014 22:55:52	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #179) Ashrym	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#181 FluffyBunbunKittens Oct 03, 2014 3:27:44	Ashrym wrote:
#182 iserith Oct 03, 2014 6:13:39	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
(Reply to #182) Bloodscythe	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #181) Ashrym	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#185 Moruvai Oct 03, 2014 22:13:47	I don't really have any issue with the balance of the spell, but the implementation of it can get pretty irritating. Casting a spell every minute over and over again... ugh. Oddly inelegant compared to most of 5e. I'd rather have something like: Mantle of Guidance Divination Cantrip Casting Time: 1 action Range: Touch Components: V, S Duration: Concentration, up to 8 hours You touch one willing creature. Until your concentration ends the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of their choice. The target can decide to whether or not to apply the bonus die before or after making the ability check. Once the bonus is applied, the target may not benefit from the divine guidance granted by this cantrip until at least 1 minute has passed, even if the spell is re-cast on the same target. This, to me, mitigates the irritating (to me) gamey process of 'walking down the road casting the spell every minute' syndrome and lets the spell be up as long as the cleric concentrates. It lets a character make use of the bonus for an extended period without having to run back and forth to the cleric to ask for more spam-casting. However, it also applies a bit of a speed-bump so that the spell is not a constant effect - waiting for a minute won't make any difference in situations where the characters have plenty of time, but in hostile territory or under a time-crunch the character has to decide when and whether to use it. I like those kinds of decisions in a game, personally.
#186 Strill Oct 04, 2014 3:00:44	Moruvai wrote:
(Reply to #186) FrogReaver	Strill wrote:
#188 DracoSuave Oct 04, 2014 3:50:02	FrogReaver wrote:
#189 Strill Oct 04, 2014 7:10:42	FrogReaver wrote:
#190 DS.397 Oct 04, 2014 7:36:17	Strill wrote:
(Reply to #188) FrogReaver	DracoSuave wrote:
#192 iserith Oct 04, 2014 11:17:50	One would imagine that a challenge where there's a 30 minute countdown is filled with distinct scenes featuring complications with much greater time constraints.
#193 DracoSuave Oct 04, 2014 11:33:14	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #193) FrogReaver	DracoSuave wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

abs1nth

Sep 28, 2014 13:14:52

Guidance (Divination Cantrip):

Casting Time: 1 Action

You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends.

A d4 on basically all ability checks outside of combat?? WTF? That spells looks just like it's asking for trouble. How am I supposed to limit that as a DM? I'm thinking this spell should probably have a 10 minute casting time or something like that, it's rarely useful in combat anyway.

Edit: Alternative idea: Make a DC 10 Wisdom check everytime you cast it if you fail, the spell fizzles and you can't cast it until you take a short or long rest.

Novacat

Sep 28, 2014 13:49:17

There's no need to limit it. It's statistically worse than using the Help action anyway.

abs1nth

Sep 28, 2014 13:57:28

Novacat wrote:

Yunru

Sep 28, 2014 14:02:16

You can lend your aid to another creature in the

completion of a task. When you take the Help action,
the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability
check it makes to perform the task you are helping with,
provided that it makes the check before the start of
your next turn.
Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in
attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint,
distract the target, or in some other way team up to
make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally
attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack
roll is made with advantage.

(Reply to #4)

abs1nth

Yunru wrote:

Plaguescarred1

Sep 28, 2014 14:31:00

The guidance spell is pretty good buffer, even better so when the target can also benefit from the Help action as well!

Rhenny

Sep 28, 2014 14:33:07

Not broken. You have a 25% chance to add only +1. A 50% chance to add only +1 or +2.

The game is more fun when PCs can succeed rather than fail. Let the cleric help others succeed.

If the DM wants to keep something from the players set DC at 20 or 25.

Personally, I like 80% of checks to be DC 10, only 15% to be DC 15, and the rare 5% to be DC 20.

This is roughly the breakdown for the WotC adventures. Setting lower DCs and letting PCs succeed encourages players to try more interesting actions. Guidance helps encourage that too.

Keendk

Sep 28, 2014 14:52:05

It's good, and can be used in a lot of situations.

It's got a few redeeming factors:

its concentration, so if you cast it you break whatever other concentration spell you might want to have running. (Hex, conjure animals, detect magic etc)

its concentration so you can only have it running on one target, which means that it is useless against reactionary rolls that anyone else but the target rolls. (I know these equate to at least 50% of my groups rolls)

you need to know beforehand that the character is going to attempt a skill, so no good unless you are a mind reader, or very metagamey.

you cast a spell to use it: "oh pelor, help my friend bluff the stupid city guard"

you cast a spell to use it 2: we all sneak past the guard, cleric:"OH PELOR, thank you for letting us sneak past the guard, now help my friend pick this lock!" Not very stealthy.

It takes an action to cast and has 5' range...not the greatest when trying to use all your speed to run away from the boulder chasing you. (Or other time issue challenges)

So no it's not "basically all ability tests out of combat", it's everything that you can prepare for without being under time pressure or observation from potential victims. So it's slightly more limited than the help action, but can give some great synergy when it can apply.

Noctaem

Sep 28, 2014 14:52:06

abs1nth wrote:

#10

Novacat

Sep 28, 2014 14:57:16

Noctaem wrote:

#11

mellored

Sep 28, 2014 15:21:13

Something that is often overlooked is that it's a concentration check.

So that breaks everything else, including if your using bless.

#12

abs1nth

Sep 28, 2014 15:35:41

Keendk wrote:

#13

Novacat

Sep 28, 2014 15:57:39

Guidance isn't "free." You're forgetting about the opportunity cost of taking the cantrip, of which the cleric has only a few. And as it has been stated, it's not much, if at all better than the Help action, which anyone can do.

#14

mattdm

Sep 28, 2014 18:27:56

Compare to bards' Jack of All Trades — much more reliable, doesn't take an extra action or require someone to use up a cantrip slot.

(Reply to #14)

Judou_Hanabi

mattdm wrote:

#16

iserith

Sep 28, 2014 19:29:26

Do you actually see it used a lot in your game, abs1nth, or is this just speculative concern?

If you are seeing it used a lot in your game, consider that you might be asking for too many ability checks. Do the actions being taken really have an uncertain outcome and a chance for interesting failure? If not, just say actions succeed and move on until you come to a dramatic situation where an ability check really is called for and the guidance spell will make more sense to be used. Rather than spammed by the cleric because the DM is asking for ability checks for every little thing.

(Reply to #12)

Ashrym

abs1nth wrote:

#18

Keendk

Sep 28, 2014 22:55:44

"You can easily get around that by having PCs announce what they are going to do. Totally makes sense when your Cleric actually has the powers of a limitless wishing well."

Your cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because he has a cantrip that is only powerful if you (the DM) ignore it's limitations, and that only "makes sense" if you accept that the Cleric is a minor wishing well because....etc

circular arguments are fun.

You seem to allow meta gaming at your table to a very high degree, and so you must accept the consequences that some spells are not designed with that in mind. If your character can announce before making a knowledge check that they want to remember a fact or that people casting spells in social situations is totally acceptable...then yes guidance is Overpowered.

"Reactionary rolls are less prevalent in my game but you could still keep one Guidance rolling at all time. Ok, so you can't use it when you need to be absolutely quiet."

I also not that you write "you could" instead of, "my player keeps". It's highly obvious that you haven't actually seen this cantrip in play and that this is all white room theory crafting on your behalf. Try it out on probation, and if you think it's still bad when your players reach level 5, ask the player to change it.

#19

slaughterj

Sep 28, 2014 23:01:26

Yunru wrote:

#20

FluffyBunbunKittens

Sep 29, 2014 0:42:43

Yes, Guidance is better than many class features. And worse, there's nothing interesting about '+2.5 to anything you were going to do outside combat'.

What our DM said was 'okay, if you use Guidance, all the DCs go up by 5'.

#21

Novacat

Sep 29, 2014 0:50:41

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#22

Keendk

Sep 29, 2014 1:04:55

Novacat wrote:

#23

Novacat

Sep 29, 2014 1:11:40

What I would probably do, if I were in that campaign (and determined not to quit), would be to play a cleric of the god of trickery, and use Guidance all the time. Like, really try to abuse it. As a player, I know full well that, at best, I'm only hurting our chances a little, since the bonus from Guidance can't ever fully cancel out the increased DC.

As a character, though, I wouldn't seem to ever realize that my deity is screwing with us.

#24

FluffyBunbunKittens

Sep 29, 2014 1:16:24

Nah, I totally agree with him, and in fact pointed Guidance out as something I would abuse if it was in. Because there is nothing to keep you from doing so, just keep touching yourself every minute if nothing's going on.

Sure, it does not apply to all checks ever, but there's a mess ton of stuff that doesn't take longer than a minute to do. It is only balanced if all you do is combats.

#25

Novacat

Sep 29, 2014 1:23:34

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#26

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 3:26:34

mattdm wrote:

#27

FrogReaver

Sep 29, 2014 3:24:04

Hmmmm well that's where my post went!! Thanks for finding it.

#28

Novacat

Sep 29, 2014 2:05:45

FrogReaver wrote:

#29

FluffyBunbunKittens

Sep 29, 2014 2:25:28

Novacat wrote:

#30

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 3:17:38

iserith wrote:

#31

RCanine

Sep 29, 2014 3:42:24

Yeah, IME guidance is far more powerful than your average cantrip. For a couple reasons:

It stacks with pretty much everything
It allows your character to contribute to everything skill-based
There's practically no opportunity cost outside of combat

That said, I'm not sure it's actually a problem. It's super fun for your character to feel useful. Failing skill-based stuff is often a drag anyway (only the very best DMs run skill-based encounters well).

#32

mister__joshua

Sep 29, 2014 3:52:23

abs1nth wrote:

#33

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 4:10:28

mister__joshua wrote:

(Reply to #33)

FrogReaver

abs1nth wrote:

#35

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 4:54:09

Ok, I've got a different idea. While I like the idea of the Wisdom check and losing the spell till you rest, the problem is that it breaks the rules of cantrips. The problem with Guidance is really that it casts too wide of a net. If it was more specific it would require player awareness and thus turn it into more of an active ability like help. It would feel less like a passive, busy-work thing but more something you earned through a combination of class abilities and clever play.

What if Guidance only allowed you to give a d4 for skills the caster had proficiency in? The problem would be that the target may not know the proficiencies of the caster but I think this will solve itself because typically Guidance is used reactively out of combat anyway and should it be applied just in case for 1min the caster could simply make it his role to pay attention when a compatible skill is used and then notify the target. It would make Guidance more in line with other cantrips and turn it into an active spell that requires the caster to pay attention to gain its benefits.

#36

Uthrac

Sep 29, 2014 6:38:26

Are PCs succeeding at skill checks really breaking anyone's game?

As pointed out above, as a concentration spell, you can only have this going at one PC at a time. And whether or not there is advanced notice before attempting a skill check (such as knowledge) would be up to the DM.

(Reply to #33)

mister__joshua

abs1nth wrote:

#38

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 7:04:42

abs1nth wrote:

#39

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 7:14:15

Uthrac wrote:

#40

Ard3

Sep 29, 2014 7:15:27

If you are concerned about Guidance stacking with everything one idea to limit it while still keeping it useful is that you can use it instead of proficiency bonus. At early levels it can offer a minor boost to skills you are proficient on a good roll and always help on the skills you arent proficient in. At higher levels as proficiency increases it loses significance on those checks but can still help in a pinch with unproficient skills.

Havent been able to play yet but to me it seems fine as it is now.

#41

Uthrac

Sep 29, 2014 8:18:32

abs1nth wrote:

#42

Novacat

Sep 29, 2014 8:27:15

abs1nth wrote:

#43

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 9:04:08

Novacat wrote:

#44

dwgautier

Sep 29, 2014 9:31:35

Guidance is not broken at all. As many people have mentioned it takes concentration so any long term buffs would drop (there will be some at mid and higher levels).

What a DM can do though is make sure the players are not abusing it. For example if the DM ask for an ablity check the DM should NOT allow the player to cast guidence before hand. Guidence needs to be player initiated. Example, if the DM ask the players to roll a dex check because the ground is crumbling under their feet then no guidance. Or if the DM ask the player to roll an Int check to see if they recognize the cut purse from earlier in the adventure that stole from the party, then no guidance.

Another limit a DM could impose is when a player without guidance says he is doing an ablity check but didnt ask the cleric for guidance then too bad when the cleric says, 'wait! let me cast guidance!!!'. It will be a good lesson for the player to think before they act.

If the players say, I want to climb the wall but first I'll cast guidance on myself, then thats a great use of the spell. Will it get redundant? Hell yes, but it lets the player feel like they are really adding something of value to the party.

#45

Keendk

Sep 29, 2014 9:50:09

dwgautier wrote:

#46

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 10:24:02

Novacat wrote:

#47

dwgautier

Sep 29, 2014 10:44:58

dwgautier wrote:

#48

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 11:18:07

abs1nth wrote:

#49

dwgautier

Sep 29, 2014 11:24:48

A house rule I use for players that constantly cast concentration spells of short duration (over and over and over again) is to make constitution Saving Throws or get one level of exhaustion.

The DC starts low, very low, at 5. But after each casting the DC goes up by 1.

What is nice about this is it stops players from stoping ever 10 mins to cast a ritual or as in the example Iserith just gave, stops players from having perma guidance up at all times.

There is using your tool belt, and then there is using your tool belt until all your tools are dull....

#50

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 11:31:42

I still think it's the DM's approach that is causing the player to think this is how guidance is used. There's pretty much no reason to constantly have guidance in effect unless the DM is surprising the players with ability checks when they haven't really stated an action. That surprise often comes out of bad scene framing and a poor application of the basic conversation of the game.

Before applying some kind of "fix" to punish the player for smart play, consider examining your approach as DM.

#51

Keendk

Sep 29, 2014 11:32:28

Absinth, just out of curiosity: How do you handle the "help" action out of combat?

Whatever the answer is, that is exactly my how you should handle guidance.

My group don't need to handle it as it works for us as written (concentration being hugely important for us), but this is obviously an issue for you so you are going to need to houserule it. I found your idea about letting it be trained profs only interesting, but it does remove the miraculous aspect of the spell.

#52

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 12:01:34

Keendk wrote:

#53

dwgautier

Sep 29, 2014 12:27:31

iserith wrote:

#54

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 12:40:26

dwgautier wrote:

#55

dwgautier

Sep 29, 2014 12:58:56

I too feel that guidance isnt an abusive spell, unless it is ran 24/10 (this is forgotten realms after all). Any time a player says, "I recast a spell every X mins" a red flag goes up for a DM.

Speaking of which, Iserith, have you ever been a DM? If not you might want to try it to give you some perspective.

#56

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 13:12:48

dwgautier wrote:

#57

BW0222

Sep 29, 2014 13:33:22

If one realistically looks at cases where ability and skill checks are made... casting guidance even a small minority, isn't realistic.

Any long term check is ruled out by the duration. If crafting, practicing a profession, climbing an extremely tall cliff, training an animal, etc. could take minutes, hours, days, or weeks. No caster is going to stand over a smith casting over and over again.

Many other checks are ruled out by the fact that the caster can't necessarily be with you. If a rogue is climbing a large cliff... unless you are climbing with him... you can't help him other than maybe the initial 15' or so. Same with swimming, stealth, disguise, deception, etc. Using handle animal to calm a bear down is usually defeated by having a spell caster waving their arms and making stange sounds.

Any type of reaction or unknown check is pretty much ruled out. Unless you know someone is going to be making a perception check... it is pointless following them around town casting guidance over and over just in case they need a perception check to see some red curtains in a window. Reactions are also typically unknown... making a handle animal check to control your mount, making an athletics check to grap a rope when you fall, etc. Kind of hard to predict which PC might need to make the check.

Many in-dungeon, social, or other situtation... checks are foiled by spellcasting. Stealth is usually defeated by the sounds of spellcasting. The major and his staff are highly likely to react negatively to spell casting before one character starts taking. Rather than get a bonus to persausion, he is more likely to get a bonus to deception to explain what that spell was, followed by a disadvantage to the check as the major is alreadly negatively disposed to you. Most rogues want to open locks and find traps quietly... not spellcasting to alert those behind the door or down the hallway.

#58

dwgautier

Sep 29, 2014 13:36:25

You have this blame the DM attitude that is really off putting. Both parties have equal share in equal fun for everyone.

Congrats on having 11,000 plus post?

#59

Noctaem

Sep 29, 2014 13:49:33

dwgautier wrote:

#60

jackbytor

Sep 29, 2014 14:06:08

I'm glad I found this thread. The cleric in my group just rolls a d4 automatically along with his d20 for all ability checks. For him, it's standard operating procedure. I was wondering on whether or not to DM fiat this. It may not be game breaking, but it sure looks that way from my other players point of view, considering he only uses it on himself most of the time. Not a huge deal, but it is a tad annoying. Seems I'll have to keep a better eye on things.

#61

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 14:10:30

dwgautier wrote:

#62

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 14:20:36

Noctaem wrote:

#63

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 14:29:17

abs1nth wrote:

(Reply to #62)

Noctaem

abs1nth wrote:

#65

dwgautier

Sep 29, 2014 14:31:58

Of course, both of those approaches are not in keeping with the way the game actually works even though I've seen both approaches in play an awful lot. I've seen them mentioned in this very thread. Perhaps it's time we consider our approaches as DMs to not be in keeping with how the game is intended to be run and that how we're choosing to do things is producing the very results we don't want to see. Because when I run a session according to the basic conversation of the game, I don't have these issues. No cleric ever has chosen to spam guidance and not because I create disincentives to do so or call them out for being abusive.

[/quote]

If that is true then you have a great community to throw dice with. In organized play this is not a common thing. Players and DMs come to events with bad habbits that lower the quality of play for everyone. Through positive critiquing (like I assume you are trying to do with me? Not needed, ty though. If we were in person and setting at a table I would love to hear your input about my DMing style) we can help other players try to game in a less abusive enviroment. DM's that run tables for the average player in organized play settings have to handle abusive players all the time. It is a noble goal to think that your benevolent approach is that effective on others... but you can't reach them all and sometimes you have to make rules against these abusive players. You could have Gandhi or MLK running a table and some people would still try to push abuse in the rules on them.

When this happens at my tables, and I would be a lier if I said it didnt happens once in awhile, I make the rulling and ask the player to wait until after the gaming session to talk it out.

So in closing, because I think I've gotten all I can out of this thread, Is guidance broken? Depends on how its used and how you define broken. I'm lumping broken in with disruptive and abusive. Simple put, if the player stats he is using guidiance to start an ability check then I think the spell is fun and a great tool for divine casters. If it is a roll that the player did not initiate (or did not have time to cast the spell but the player still rolls the 1d4) then I think its an abuse and not fun for the table.

#66

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 14:46:11

dwgautier wrote:

#67

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 15:14:52

iserith wrote:

#68

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 15:25:18

abs1nth wrote:

#69

Noctaem

Sep 29, 2014 15:36:40

Yeah as a DM you WANT to give information to your players, why is that even a problem?

(Reply to #67)

Rhenny

abs1nth wrote:

#71

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 15:59:53

abs1nth wrote:

#72

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 16:00:56

abs1nth wrote:

(Reply to #71)

Rhenny

abs1nth wrote:

#74

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 16:09:54

Oh look, replace all but the first "I cast Guidance" with "I continued to pray to my god for guidance" and no-one gets annoyed.

#75

abs1nth

Sep 29, 2014 16:13:01

Yunru wrote:

#76

FrogReaver

Sep 29, 2014 17:32:53

Yea bless as a reaction is a problem. However always keeping bless on a single character should work fine. It isn't overpowered and it gives a nice buff.

i especially liked the cleric concept of the cleric who constantly pray and keeps himself blessed. Good use of the skill by that player.

#77

iserith

Sep 29, 2014 18:08:08

abs1nth wrote:

#78

MykeSchultz

Sep 29, 2014 23:53:21

Two players have Guidance in my party. I don't notice it making things too easy (for example, last session 3 people died).

My problem with it is,

A. I'm tired of saying to the DM, "I'm casting Guidance." Yet, I can't help myself.

B. If you can take "Guidance," then its practically a must take. And I dislike any game elements that are must takes.

Also, my bet is, rightly, or wrongly, if you constantly cast Guidance all the time, then you're going to eventaully Poff the dm. (our dm doesn't quite fully understand how good Guidance is, yet).

In all, my problem with it is more so an argument from "wonkiness," than an argument from mechanics.

Yet, I think there should be a good cantrip buff spell.

I guess if it was up to me, I'd make it so one could only benefit from it once, until a short rest.

Edit: But then again, short rest probably wouldn't make much difference, and long rest would probably be too much of a nerf imo.

#79

Keendk

Sep 29, 2014 23:37:02

Iserith that's all well and good, and it's nice to see your style if DMing and hope it will inspire people to play the same way.

BUT that's not how the OP plays, and it would be wrong to forc him to play on your premises, also it seems his players might not be very old or experienced so that is a factor as well.

If would suggest you (absinth) allow the cantrip as is, and if a player takes it explain to them that you have some strong reservations about the cantrip and you personally think it's bland and catch all. Say that it's on trial up front and if you don't like the way it's used/abused then you might put some heavier limitations on it, and invite the player to help you think of any such limits...offer you guidance if you will.

This way, hopefully, the player might hold back on cheese and if not you have warned before the cantrip was even taken.

That is of course if you are in fact the DM and not the wizard just moaning about another player, seriously that wizard has anger management issues.

#80

FluffyBunbunKittens

Sep 30, 2014 0:07:37

Noctaem wrote:

#81

RPGBG

Sep 30, 2014 2:26:57

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#82

Zardnaar

Sep 30, 2014 3:00:27

Yes its broken IMHO. I just tell my DM I constantly cast it every minute on the next dexterity check. You can use it to buff most skill checks outside combat and a high dexterity cleric with the criminal back ground can often out perform a rogue. Our Druid has seen me using it with my light cleric and now her Druid is doing the same thing I am recasting it every minute for dexterity checks which really means initiative.

Bless is also broken IMHO as it out classes every other level 1 cleric spell including domain spells like faerie fire. I'm starting to use bless in level 2 spell slots to bless 4 members of the party and once I used it in a level 3 spell slot to bless the entire party.

Both spells should have been a static +2 modifier or a +1 modifer cast as a bonus action.

Its just a pure player entitlement spell continuing recent trends of failure should be minimized. Its straight from the care bear book of healing for 5E.

#83

2Chlorobutanal

Sep 30, 2014 3:00:24

Imagine your daily life.

Imagine how disruptive it would be to have an alarm set to go off every minute, and when the alarm goes off, you have to stop what you're doing and hold your breath or count backward or something for 6 seconds.

I would not use guidance "every minute" because it would destroy any sense of realism or immersion in my gaming experience, just to get +2.5 to an initiative roll.

Pretty much any other application of guidance can involve the spell being cast as appropriate. Your rogue is climbing a dangerous cliff? Pray for some guidance first. etc, etc. Outside of combat and social interactions, many skill checks can be done as "take 20" anyway, so unless the task is just barely too hard to complete without guidance, the spell won't make much of a difference. In combat, +2.5 to a skill check seems like it's perfectly reasonably costed at 1 action.

#84

Yunru

Sep 30, 2014 3:04:09

Hwll even if you constantly recast it in a dungeon or something, that's not breaking immersion. The only time the immersion is broken is when there's no logical reason not to consult your god for guidance.

In a dungeon potentially crawling with monsters? Guidance. Attempting to solve a complex puzzle lock? Guidance. Enjoying a picknick in a field... no.

#85

Zardnaar

Sep 30, 2014 3:07:13

Yunru wrote:

#86

Yunru

Sep 30, 2014 3:10:30

Well if you want to play up your character being that paranoid, good for you. Basically the only time immersion can't be preserved thanks to RP is when there's no chance of a skill check within the duration known to the characters.

#87

Zardnaar

Sep 30, 2014 3:16:19

Yunru wrote:

#88

abs1nth

Sep 30, 2014 5:48:16

Noctaem wrote:

#89

Pangur

Sep 30, 2014 6:01:52

RPGBG wrote:

#90

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 6:03:39

Keendk wrote:

#91

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 6:05:48

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#92

abs1nth

Sep 30, 2014 6:34:00

iserith wrote:

#93

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 7:08:07

abs1nth wrote:

#94

abs1nth

Sep 30, 2014 7:17:26

iserith wrote:

#95

dwgautier

Sep 30, 2014 7:12:11

A DM can just use passive skills to stop guidence from being used so much.

#96

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 7:20:45

abs1nth wrote:

#97

FluffyBunbunKittens

Sep 30, 2014 7:23:45

iserith wrote:

#98

Pangur

Sep 30, 2014 7:32:02

abs1nth wrote:

#99

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 7:36:15

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#100

abs1nth

Sep 30, 2014 7:48:53

Pangur wrote:

#101

Nachturnus

Sep 30, 2014 8:52:08

It's RAW.

It's silly.

As a DM, I'd require the player to have a ~very~ good explanation for their character's behavior, and even then, 2.5 isn't a huge deal to me for simple ability checks (or even initiative really)

Yes, it's a cantrip, and it's good, but it's really not going to break the game, especially considering you either need to start as cleric, or have 15 wis and spend a level to get it. It's got limited usability for most classes as a result, and probably won't be game-breaking in most situations.

#102

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 8:57:05

Nachturnus wrote:

#103

FFSAA

Sep 30, 2014 9:05:43

Yes, you can pretty much auto-suceed checks outside of combat. Guidance + Bless = +2d4, help action = advantage, bard +d6 - +d12. The bard alone is pretty much auto-succeed, the extra 5 and advantage from guideance and bless is just bonus.

#104

bawylie

Sep 30, 2014 9:21:52

I have some new players who came off what I consider a bad DM.

I'm having to sort of retrain them out of an extreme risk-mitigation behavior. Their former DM ran the game as a process SIM & these two folks are constantly angling to make "favored" rolls and only then when they've thoroughly calculated and maximized their odds of success.

Theyre getting used to hearing "Guys, there's no roll for this. It just happens/doesn't work."

And Im getting less "Can I roll arcana?" etc. It still happens and I have to ask "Why? What are you doing that I might want the result of an Arcana test?"

But it's getting better. I'll have 'em right in a month or so.

#105

kalil

Sep 30, 2014 9:34:02

IMHO guidance is insanely overpowered and immensely annoying in actual play. All in all a very bad piece of game design.

#106

Uthrac

Sep 30, 2014 10:04:42

You want to know what's broken? Sacred Flame. Every time the PCs encounter an empty corridor or room, the cleric casts Sacred Flame at each empty square to determine whether there is anything invisible hiding. It breaks the game, because nothing invisible ever goes unnoticed. Please help me fix this entirely broken cantrip. Thank you.

(Reply to #104)

eleran

bawylie wrote:

#108

Nachturnus

Sep 30, 2014 10:37:50

iserith wrote:

(Reply to #106)

eleran

Uthrac wrote:

#110

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 10:39:52

eleran wrote:

#111

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 10:46:12

Nachturnus wrote:

#112

Zardnaar

Sep 30, 2014 11:02:52

Its not like your god can take your spells away from you in this edition. Spam guidance there is noo real mechanical downside to it. Its like being proficinet in every skill i hte game and having expertise in all of your trained skills.

(Reply to #107)

bawylie

eleran wrote:

(Reply to #113)

eleran

bawylie wrote:

(Reply to #16)

crimfan07

iserith wrote:

#116

Otakkun

Sep 30, 2014 14:20:53

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#117

Yunru

Sep 30, 2014 14:24:33

Otakkun wrote:

#118

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 14:49:04

crimfan07 wrote:

#119

RCanine

Sep 30, 2014 18:13:34

I see the Guidance problem a lot in Organized Play. In those situations, failing a skill check will often lead to loss of rewards, and since rewards are capped and very specific, players do their best amount of cheesing any die roll they have to make in order to ensure they don't "miss anything." They'll also do massive RP backbends trying to prevent their characters from taking any action that doesn't involve a skill they are specialized in.

This is a symptom of the issue:

Zardnaar wrote:

#120

iserith

Sep 30, 2014 18:17:12

It also sounds like in OP, you're only succeeding because you roll well rather than because you removed uncertainty through clever play.

#121

RCanine

Sep 30, 2014 18:32:17

iserith wrote:

(Reply to #20)

crimfan07

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#123

Zardnaar

Sep 30, 2014 20:35:10

RCanine wrote:

(Reply to #111)

2Chlorobutanal

iserith wrote:

#125

Noon

Sep 30, 2014 21:55:37

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

(Reply to #124)

FrogReaver

2Chlorobutanal wrote:

#127

iserith

Oct 01, 2014 5:50:38

2Chlorobutanal wrote:

(Reply to #119)

Timborama

RCanine wrote:

(Reply to #127)

2Chlorobutanal

iserith wrote:

#130

iserith

Oct 01, 2014 18:41:29

2Chlorobutanal wrote:

(Reply to #130)

2Chlorobutanal

This is an artificial distinction to me. There is no sharp divide between "DM" and "person."

There is no functional difference between saying "You can't cast guidance anymore right now" and narrating that "you cast guidance for the 15th time in 10 minutes, but it seems to have no effect - your divine insight is suddenly absent." In fact, the first case can easily be implemented as the second, if people get uptight about "being told no" but are somehow more comfortable with the game being narrated to circument their wishes.

When I play, we understand that if the DM says "you can't do this," there is a reason for it. The reason may be a story-based reason or a balance/fun-based reason, but in either case, we accept it and move on pretty easily. In fact, it's easy to manufacture story-based reasons as to why we "can't" do anti-fun things, such as the example of the spell failing to work, or a cleric having reservations about "squandering" his divine gifts by casting spells so often. However, unless it becomes necessary to explain these things fully, most people are fine with simply saying "you can't do that."

Saying "I always cast guidance all the time" is really no different than telling a player "you can't always cast guidance all the time." They both are making abstract assumptions about a character's "default" actions for the sake of brevity and fun. However, in one case, the "always having guidance" could complicate matters- by shifting the power level of the game, for example, or creating disbelief in the "realism" of a character that spends 10% of his or her waking time casting spells during daily life. In this case, I think it's much simpler and more elegant to say "you can't do that all the time, save that spell for good opportunities." Having a +2.5 on a character sheet generally shouldn't be more exciting or fun than getting to cast a spell that helps you or your friends succeed.

Saying "I cast guidance all the time" is similar to saying "I walk around with a Readied action to attack anyone who starts a fight." I think it's best to leave these situations out of the game, because the game will play more smoothly and dynamically if decision-making is more important. It also reduces the burden of mental juggling required by players as well as streamlining encounters. In the end, it's going to be a wash to implement these behaviors anyway, as why would only one character in a game world choose to use such an obviously superior tactic?

While you're at it, why not describe how your character with crafting proficiency makes a modern assault rifle- after all, you could adequately describe the process if given time to research it, and magic could certainly create sufficient materials and level of craftsmanship. This would give him or her a massive range and rate-of-attack advantage over every other character in the game world, but sometimes, it's better to limit ourselves for the fun of the game.

#132

Noon

Oct 01, 2014 19:59:12

Social contracts will vary. In some social contracts the DM can just say no. Trying to argue that actually the DM can't do that, in such a case, is silly. You can try to argue someone into changing their social contract. But as an argument just trying to tell someone their social contract is what you say it is - that'd be silly.

#133

Pangur

Oct 01, 2014 23:48:42

abs1nth wrote:

#134

FrogReaver

Oct 02, 2014 0:33:05

So I've seen alot of posts about how it's wrong to spam guidance. Can I get some examples of when using guidance would be appropriate.

Like if a party comes to a broken bridge. They can try to jump across the bridge or go some other way. Cleric uses guidance on first guy he jumps. He uses guidance on the next guy and he jumps and so on... Is that guidance spam or a legitimate use of it?

If you are looking for a hidden door the cleric might cast guidance on the wizard to help find it (investigate). After it's find the may cast it on the rogue to help see if it's trapped. He may then cast it again on the rogue to help disarm the trap. He may then cast it on the fighter to bash open the door instead of trying to find the switch. Is that a legitimate use or is that guidance spam?

IMO all those uses of guidance I just stated is exactly how every player is going to play it (unless he has a strong roleplay reason to do otherwise). Is this what you all think is overpowered and shouldnt be allowed? If so are you all suggesting that a DM is wrong by allowing for skill checks in these situations (those of you who are blaming the DM for his DM style as the reason why he thinks guidance is overpowered)? Are you suggesting the PC's should automatically succeed or fail in these situations?

Further, why do you expect the cleric not to cast it in situations like the examples I provided?

#135

DracoSuave

Oct 02, 2014 1:34:51

Let's see, Guidance is useful, has a power level that remains useful across all levels, and is spammable.

If this weren't fifth edition, I'd consider that a problem.

This is fifth edition, however, and I think a lot of the resistance to Guidance is comparisons to previous edition and their cantrip levels--it seems to me a lot of the same nonsense Spoony did in his review of Fifth Edition when talking about cantrips. Cantrips are supposed to be decent now. And, it's not like Clerics have a lot of cantrip options. Obviously this is going to look great in comparison to their list of pants.

#136

DracoSuave

Oct 02, 2014 1:34:54

Let's see, Guidance is useful, has a power level that remains useful across all levels, and is spammable.

#137

Strill

Oct 02, 2014 2:36:37

Nachturnus wrote:

(Reply to #137)

AaronOfBarbaria

Strill wrote:

#139

Zardnaar

Oct 02, 2014 5:38:04

Strill wrote:

#140

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 6:25:36

2Chlorobutanal wrote:

#141

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 7:03:25

FrogReaver wrote:

#142

abs1nth

Oct 02, 2014 8:15:55

iserith wrote:

#143

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 8:36:56

abs1nth wrote:

#144

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 8:36:15

abs1nth wrote:

#145

Pangur

Oct 02, 2014 8:36:16

abs1nth wrote:

(Reply to #141)

FrogReaver

iserith wrote:

#147

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 8:57:15

FrogReaver wrote:

#148

DracoSuave

Oct 02, 2014 9:49:46

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

#149

Uthrac

Oct 02, 2014 9:57:42

FrogReaver wrote:

#150

DracoSuave

Oct 02, 2014 10:12:49

About the only thing Guidance can do, in my recollection, that is actually potentially 'Broken' is casting it on an assassin rogue before a combat begins. [It works on Initiative checks]

And that depends on your view of 'broken'.

Still wouldn't allow recasts for 'a better roll' tho, for flavor reasons.

#151

Nachturnus

Oct 02, 2014 10:37:38

DracoSuave wrote:

(Reply to #151)

DracoSuave

Nachturnus wrote:

#153

Nachturnus

Oct 02, 2014 10:40:07

DracoSuave wrote:

(Reply to #87)

Bloodscythe

Zardnaar wrote:

#155

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 10:59:57

Uthrac wrote:

#156

RCanine

Oct 02, 2014 11:10:33

FrogReaver wrote:

#157

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 11:22:21

Bloodscythe wrote:

#158

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 11:31:56

RCanine wrote:

(Reply to #147)

FrogReaver

iserith wrote:

#160

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 12:00:14

FrogReaver wrote:

#161

FrogReaver

Oct 02, 2014 12:15:32

Simple player method to always get guidance. Everyone always asks cleric to guidance them before doing anything.

Thats what your methods will lead to.

#162

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 12:28:59

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #162)

FrogReaver

iserith wrote:

#164

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 12:40:57

FrogReaver wrote:

#165

FrogReaver

Oct 02, 2014 12:46:33

I don't think there is onone but based on your previous posts I assumed u would have an issue with that.

#166

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 12:51:22

FrogReaver wrote:

#167

abs1nth

Oct 02, 2014 13:49:40

iserith wrote:

#168

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 13:58:52

abs1nth wrote:

(Reply to #168)

FrogReaver

iserith wrote:

#170

FrogReaver

Oct 02, 2014 15:20:46

I propose we discuss guidance being used in time constraint situations which are likely to require checks.

Is guidance broken or over powered in tht subset of uses?

#171

DracoSuave

Oct 02, 2014 16:40:31

Create situations where guidance is certainly useful, but where there is enough pressure that the party cannot wait for a spam-cast situation.

For example--the party needs to cross a large spike-filled pit. No pressure. As soon as a single player crosses it, it triggers a combat on the other side of the pit. The character on the other side cannot handle this combat alone, and so there is a sense of urgency.

During a tense negotiation with a duke/whatever, have it noticed that one person is only casting spells. Have it give the negotiator disadvantage on his roll, because said important npc distrusts magic that he cannot see. Last group of adventurers cast friends on him, you see...

Climbing a wall, and the floor is now lava.

Then give them situations where spamcasting guidance is okay... but doesn't have a huge impact.

'Okay, you cast guidance on the guy, he makes his investigation roll, and you find my plot device. Excellent.' Failure would have meant the device was found but a trap triggered.

Lastly, give a situation where spamcasting guidance is not only okay... but it's absolutely impactful in the success.

'Good job guys. You've disabled the eldritch machine without it exploding and destroying all of Breland, including your families and loved ones. Good thing you had Avarone and Windpipe there. Guidance and Bardic Inspiration for the win!'

#172

iserith

Oct 02, 2014 16:52:13

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #169)

DracoSuave

FrogReaver wrote:

#174

FrogReaver

Oct 02, 2014 17:53:51

Why all time constraints listed assume party is in combat?

#175

obsid

Oct 02, 2014 18:39:59

Here is how I would handle it. Cleric: "I wish to cast guidence on myself every minute." DM: "Ok... you are on the road for the last hour, you have been casting guidence every minute, after 60 times of casting it, you get the feeling that your god doesnt want you to waste the gifts he gives you." If they still keep doing it, some NPC follower of the same god might show up later very angry at the cleric.... eventually it may just stop working for a while ("You try, but it doesnt seem to work anymore...", temporary and comes back and starts working again later). If they want to use guidence right before they do a skill check (like some knowledge check or something) thats fine, thats the point of the spell. But if the trap that they didnt know about drops on thier head, they shouldnt have guidence up and ready to go in advance.

#176

Noon

Oct 02, 2014 19:24:58

Seems most people are annoyed at how it gets a bonus without having to deal with the fiction to get it. Just pure system use - worse, pure system use that gives an advantage over the fiction. Blasphemy!

#177

RCanine

Oct 02, 2014 20:31:41

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #173)

Ashrym

DracoSuave wrote:

#179

FluffyBunbunKittens

Oct 02, 2014 22:55:52

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #179)

Ashrym

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#181

FluffyBunbunKittens

Oct 03, 2014 3:27:44

Ashrym wrote:

#182

iserith

Oct 03, 2014 6:13:39

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

(Reply to #182)

Bloodscythe

iserith wrote:

(Reply to #181)

Ashrym

FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:

#185

Moruvai

Oct 03, 2014 22:13:47

I don't really have any issue with the balance of the spell, but the implementation of it can get pretty irritating. Casting a spell every minute over and over again... ugh. Oddly inelegant compared to most of 5e. I'd rather have something like:

Mantle of Guidance

Divination Cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Touch

Components: V, S

Duration: Concentration, up to 8 hours

You touch one willing creature. Until your concentration ends the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of their choice. The target can decide to whether or not to apply the bonus die before or after making the ability check. Once the bonus is applied, the target may not benefit from the divine guidance granted by this cantrip until at least 1 minute has passed, even if the spell is re-cast on the same target.

This, to me, mitigates the irritating (to me) gamey process of 'walking down the road casting the spell every minute' syndrome and lets the spell be up as long as the cleric concentrates. It lets a character make use of the bonus for an extended period without having to run back and forth to the cleric to ask for more spam-casting. However, it also applies a bit of a speed-bump so that the spell is not a constant effect - waiting for a minute won't make any difference in situations where the characters have plenty of time, but in hostile territory or under a time-crunch the character has to decide when and whether to use it. I like those kinds of decisions in a game, personally.

#186

Strill

Oct 04, 2014 3:00:44

Moruvai wrote:

(Reply to #186)

FrogReaver

Strill wrote:

#188

DracoSuave

Oct 04, 2014 3:50:02

FrogReaver wrote:

#189

Strill

Oct 04, 2014 7:10:42

FrogReaver wrote:

#190

DS.397

Oct 04, 2014 7:36:17

Strill wrote:

(Reply to #188)

FrogReaver

DracoSuave wrote:

#192

iserith

Oct 04, 2014 11:17:50

One would imagine that a challenge where there's a 30 minute countdown is filled with distinct scenes featuring complications with much greater time constraints.

#193

DracoSuave

Oct 04, 2014 11:33:14

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #193)

FrogReaver

DracoSuave wrote: