| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1RufusRockbottomJan 13, 2015 14:24:57 | The character in question is born half dragon which implies the half dragon template is added to the base race prior to birth.
The base race is a human, using variant rules for an extra feat. So the feat would have to applied to the character prior to adding the half dragon template, which in turn has to be applied to the base race prior to birth.
Is it not lore breaking to apply a skill based feat such as "skulker" or "shield master" to a character before it has even been born?
Additionally the half dragon template informs people to copy over all "statistics" from base race. Statistics being all numerical values such as hp, hit dice, ability scores, while some may debate that things such as Str, Dex and Con are abilities. The numerical values tied to said abilities are referred to as "ability scores" and therefore can be considered "statistics" for the half dragon template.
As no other race, except for a human using variant ruling has access to a feat, I put forward to the community that template ruling was designed around races with no access to feats and that a human using variant ruling is not only lore breaking but should be ineligible for the half dragon template while using a feat that suggests they learned a skill prior to birth.
Input would be appreciated |
| #2AaronOfBarbariaJan 13, 2015 14:33:18 | The rules do not attempt to model what portions of a character's capabilities are gained at which developmental stages of life - only to represent what the character is capable of during the time of play.
If you are a half-dragon human, using the variant option, then you have all that a human variant has - feat included - and all that the half-dragon tells you to add.
If you really must attach some kind of "born with it" explanation, instead of choosing to say that something was learned prior to birth, choose to say that the character was born with a predisposition toward or natural affinity with that something, and learned it while growing up. |
| #3RufusRockbottomJan 13, 2015 15:08:07 | While the rules do not attempt to model what portions of a character's capabilities are gained at which developmental stages of life.
The rules when RAW state statistics are carried over, not special abilities as in 3.5 templates. Feats are not statistics and while one may infer that templates work as they did before in 3.5, the rules RAW(unless there is a typo or missing text) state only statistics.
An Official ruling on this would be appreciated, as all I can personally find is people making assumptions on 5e using outdated refrences from previous versions.
Edit- The basis for my thinking is based on the literal definition of the word "statistic" If there is a broader definition of the word "statistic" when used in D&D terminology and someone could provide reference to it, it would be appreciated, as it would render my argument invalid. |
| #4AaronOfBarbariaJan 13, 2015 15:27:52 | You should not be so strict about the definitions of words as they apply to D&D - this edition is written with intentionally casual language: the writer's wrote as if speaking, not as if codifying legalese meant to be held up to intense scrutiny.
When the book says "statistics" it means "bits of game mechanics" - this isn't something that has a specific page which can be quoted, since as I said this edition is not written so strictly, but rather is something that can tell is true by reading the word in the context that it is used in throughout the D&D rules. |
| #5RufusRockbottomJan 13, 2015 15:54:11 | Reading something strictly or casually can make a significant difference though, an example being Arcane Ward from choosing Abjuration as your Wizard arcane tradition.
Using a 7th level wizard with a +4 Int Mod as a basis for the example, Casually reading it, you would have an arcane ward of 22 Strictly reading it, you would have an arcane ward of 18
While it may not seem like much, in terms of min/maxing and avoiding homebrew, it really can make a significant impact on character development.
I try to be as onboard as possible with character creation. |
| #6randlJan 13, 2015 15:57:10 | My personal opinion is that templates are meant to be applied to NPC's (Monster stat blocks) and not directly to PC's. Allowing a PC the full abilities of a base race and then add the Half-Dragon on top of it can be a bit unbalancing, and not just for the varient human. Unless other players are getting similar upgrades, I would go with more of a replacement instead of stacking. Varient human actually works with with this, in that the Half-Dragon template becomes the feat (and the skill bonus). Just my opinion. |
| #7RufusRockbottomJan 13, 2015 16:01:25 |
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| (Reply to #7)randl |
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| #9RufusRockbottomJan 13, 2015 16:35:09 | The debate is about whether or not a feat is considered as a statistic when applying a half dragon template to a human using variant ruling, when RAW and using the literal definition of the word "statistic".
As mentioned in the Edit in post #3, nobody can provide any official ruling or reference regarding what is encompassed in the word "statistic", just suggestions that I take a more casual approach to my interpretation of words when applying a RAW basis for my interpretation. |
| #10AaronOfBarbariaJan 13, 2015 16:52:51 | Your arcane ward example is not one of the difference between reading strictly or casually, but one of reading and comprehending or reading but not comprehending. |
| #11SaeviomagyJan 13, 2015 17:21:51 | Variant humans don't get their feat at birth. Somewhere between being born and the start of the adventure, they get the feat. The half dragon template does not change that. Half dragons are not necessarily so from birth. The MM entry specifies that half dragons can be created through spells and rituals as well. Things falling under "statistics" in the MM include "special traits" which includes all kinds of things, and is not limited to what is written under "special traits", as is evinced by various monsters. Abilities gained from feats fit there just fine.
In otherwords, your DM can feel free to do what he's doing... and since monsters don't follow PC rules any way, he always could. |
| (Reply to #10)RufusRockbottom |
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| (Reply to #11)RufusRockbottom |
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| #14SilentSinJan 13, 2015 17:44:47 |
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| (Reply to #13)SilentSin |
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| (Reply to #13)randl |
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| #17RufusRockbottomJan 13, 2015 17:54:25 | Resolved already but thanks for additional input, but to clarify I was talking specifically about skill based feats being learned prior to birth such as knowing the "shield master" feat while still in an egg or before the umbilical cord has been cut.
Skill based feats not being genetic and all that jazz. |
| #18RufusRockbottomJan 13, 2015 17:57:01 | Thanks for the good replies, My party and DM are transitioning from 3.5 to 5 so the more specific all this is the better, learn it right the first time is my philosophy.
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| #19randlJan 13, 2015 18:01:48 | I was more just curious about the specifics. I tend to like well fleshed out characters with realistic context, but I don't go back to the creatures "birth" (and before) to figure out if it should have a feat or not. |
| (Reply to #19)RufusRockbottom |
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| (Reply to #15)RufusRockbottom |
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| (Reply to #12)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| (Reply to #22)RufusRockbottom |
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| #24jonathonhawkeJan 13, 2015 22:27:12 | As the variant human's feat is a racial feature, disallowing it for a human-variant half-dragon should equate to removing racial features from half-dragon's of any base race. |
| (Reply to #21)SilentSin |
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| #261eejitJan 14, 2015 3:33:50 | IMO a "statistic" in D&D is anything you'd record on a character sheet which is a long-term intrinsic part of that character (i.e. pretty much everything other than temporary hitpoints and equipment). |
| (Reply to #26)SilentSin |
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| (Reply to #27)1eejit |
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| (Reply to #28)SilentSin |
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| #30SorxoresJan 14, 2015 7:07:54 |
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| #31Ganymede425Jan 14, 2015 8:00:11 | PHB, Page 11 - "Your character is a combination of game statistics, roleplaying hooks, and your imagination."
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