Halfling Lightfoot Naturally Stealthy - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arnwolf666 Feb 28, 2015 9:47:21	Our Paladin and our Halfling Lightfoot Rogue are fighting a ghoul. Round 1 Paladin attacks Halfling attacks, uses bonus action and goes into hiding Ghoul attacks Paladin because he can not see the Halfling Round 2 Paladin attacks Halfling attacks gets advantage for coming out of hiding on attack roll, uses bonus action and goes into hiding Ghoul attacks Paladin because he can not see the halfling is this the correct way to use the Halfling Naturally Stealthy ability?
#2 arnwolf666 Feb 28, 2015 10:28:05	Wow, no takers on this question
#3 mrpopstar Feb 28, 2015 10:32:02	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #3) arnwolf666	mrpopstar wrote:
#5 alienux Feb 28, 2015 11:02:37	Is the halfling's attempt to hide being contested by a perception check made by the ghoul? It's possible that the halfling would fail to hide.
#6 jaelis Feb 28, 2015 12:13:03	Also, the ghoul could walk around the paladin to where it could see the rogue. Whether it is smart enough to do the is a DM call.
#7 Psikerlord Feb 28, 2015 14:39:41	My ruling would be disad on the check to hide behind the paladin, as combat has commenced and the ghoul knows the halfling is there somewhere. Also, I dont use passive perception, so it's a contest: dex stealth check (disad) vs wisdom perception check (no action required from the ghoul). Yes this means there is a real prospect the halfling wont succesfully hide, and is intended. I prefer a more realistic hiding as opposed to gamist - ie used primarily for ambush scenarios. But it depends on the particular situation.
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Feb 28, 2015 15:01:11	My ruling on this matter would depend on positioning, and can basically be summed up as this: either the ghoul has cover against the halfling's attack because of the intervening obstacle (such as the paladin) must be between the two if the halfling is hidden, and if no cover is gained by the ghoul then the halfling can't possibly be hidden because the ghoul has a clear line of sight to the halfling. It's a process of step behind paladin > hide > step out > lose benefit of being able to be hidden > attack normally or step behind paladin > hide > attack "through" paladin with advantage from behing hidden.
#9 jeff0 Feb 28, 2015 15:02:27	Psikerlord wrote:
#10 jaelis Feb 28, 2015 15:07:40	True the halfing shouldn't normally get advantage, unless he's attacking with range/reach from behind the paladin, and then has to deal with cover.
#11 arnwolf666 Feb 28, 2015 15:24:28	I imagine a party of 8 lightfoot halflings using one medium sized warrior to hide. RAW it should be possible lol. The abilty does look like it should be usable at melee since it is a bonus action used on the halflings turn and it requires a larger creature for the hiding purpose. We would just really like to be using the ability by the book or at least as intended by the designers. Also, we do not use miniatures or do positioning accurately. We just don't like that kind of detail or the miniature combat feel of the game. This edition was supposed to be friendly to people not using miniatures. It's not as bad as prior editions, but I would like to see more abilities defined clearly on how they play out in combat.
#12 arnwolf666 Feb 28, 2015 15:32:16	I am a rules light guy, but I don't think there were ever good rules for stealth in any edition of this game. I am sure they had to put alot of thought in the stealth part of the game, I just feel the instruction did not translate well to paper, or they are scattered out in too many places in the PHB. I would really love to see an official breakdown of how stealth abilities play from round to round in combat somewhere.
#13 mrpopstar Feb 28, 2015 16:03:57	arnwolf666 wrote:
#14 jaelis Feb 28, 2015 16:29:46	Ooh do you think a halfling can attack while in a larger creatures space? I would have said no, but maybe its worth looking at.
#15 jeff0 Feb 28, 2015 16:41:24	jaelis wrote:
#16 Coredump00 Feb 28, 2015 17:06:17	There is a lot of room for table/DM interpretation and adjudication in the Stealth rules. Personally, I would rule it more and more difficult to keep hiding in the same spot round after round (or at least to keep getting advantage). OTOH, I also interpret the requirements to hide a bit more leniently than some others do also.
#17 mrpopstar Feb 28, 2015 17:30:09	jaelis wrote:
#18 Noon Feb 28, 2015 19:30:47	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #18) arnwolf666	Noon wrote:
#20 Psikerlord Mar 01, 2015 2:23:31	jeff0 wrote:
#21 SleepsInTraffic Mar 01, 2015 8:28:23	My reasoning is If I hide behind a rock it doesn't matter that you'd know I'm behind there, if you can't make it to a position that can get a clear line of site on me you don't know which side of the rock I'm going to swing out from behind in order to launch my attack. You entirely know where to move to in order to take away that advantage but until such time that you make that move I have the advantage. I take it as the old west gun battle hiding behind rocks routine. For the original question of this thread though, the ghoul should have entirely circled around the paladin to keep at least putting eyes on the rogue. I mean sometimes that's not within the enemy's capabilities maybe you are in a 10 foot wide hallway and the fighters taking up the middle 5 (so the enemies would need to squeeze to get past the fighter) and the rogue keeps hiding behind the fighter then attacking and re hiding behind the fighter then that's a totally valid tactic. the enemies can't get around the fighter to get line of sight on the rogue. That I know where to find you doesn't mean you aren't hidden or just means I know how to stop you from being hidden.
#22 mrpopstar Mar 01, 2015 9:51:56	SleepsInTraffic wrote:
#23 arnwolf666 Mar 01, 2015 13:15:47	I don't use mini's, I just imagine RAW 8 halflings within 5 foot of the Paladin all taking the hide action as a bonus action on their turn, and none of the enemies being able to see or attack the halflings. It's quite comical to me,but valid as a RAW.
#24 mrpopstar Mar 01, 2015 13:30:07	arnwolf666 wrote:
#25 jaelis Mar 01, 2015 13:36:21	I don't use mini's, I just imagine RAW 8 halflings within 5 foot of the Paladin all taking the hide action as a bonus action on their turn, and none of the enemies being able to see or attack the halflings. It's quite comical to me,but valid as a RAW.
(Reply to #21) Coredump00	SleepsInTraffic wrote:
#27 mrpopstar Mar 01, 2015 15:08:50	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #27) Coredump00	mrpopstar wrote:
(Reply to #25) arnwolf666	jaelis wrote:
#30 mrpopstar Mar 02, 2015 17:10:36	Coredump00 wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

arnwolf666

Feb 28, 2015 9:47:21

Our Paladin and our Halfling Lightfoot Rogue are fighting a ghoul.

Round 1

Paladin attacks

Halfling attacks, uses bonus action and goes into hiding

Ghoul attacks Paladin because he can not see the Halfling

Round 2

Paladin attacks

Halfling attacks gets advantage for coming out of hiding on attack roll, uses bonus action and goes into hiding

Ghoul attacks Paladin because he can not see the halfling

is this the correct way to use the Halfling Naturally Stealthy ability?

arnwolf666

Feb 28, 2015 10:28:05

Wow, no takers on this question

mrpopstar

Feb 28, 2015 10:32:02

arnwolf666 wrote:

(Reply to #3)

arnwolf666

mrpopstar wrote:

alienux

Feb 28, 2015 11:02:37

Is the halfling's attempt to hide being contested by a perception check made by the ghoul? It's possible that the halfling would fail to hide.

jaelis

Feb 28, 2015 12:13:03

Also, the ghoul could walk around the paladin to where it could see the rogue. Whether it is smart enough to do the is a DM call.

Psikerlord

Feb 28, 2015 14:39:41

My ruling would be disad on the check to hide behind the paladin, as combat has commenced and the ghoul knows the halfling is there somewhere.

Also, I dont use passive perception, so it's a contest: dex stealth check (disad) vs wisdom perception check (no action required from the ghoul). Yes this means there is a real prospect the halfling wont succesfully hide, and is intended. I prefer a more realistic hiding as opposed to gamist - ie used primarily for ambush scenarios. But it depends on the particular situation.

AaronOfBarbaria

Feb 28, 2015 15:01:11

My ruling on this matter would depend on positioning, and can basically be summed up as this: either the ghoul has cover against the halfling's attack because of the intervening obstacle (such as the paladin) must be between the two if the halfling is hidden, and if no cover is gained by the ghoul then the halfling can't possibly be hidden because the ghoul has a clear line of sight to the halfling.

It's a process of step behind paladin > hide > step out > lose benefit of being able to be hidden > attack normally or step behind paladin > hide > attack "through" paladin with advantage from behing hidden.

jeff0

Feb 28, 2015 15:02:27

Psikerlord wrote:

#10

jaelis

Feb 28, 2015 15:07:40

True the halfing shouldn't normally get advantage, unless he's attacking with range/reach from behind the paladin, and then has to deal with cover.

#11

arnwolf666

Feb 28, 2015 15:24:28

I imagine a party of 8 lightfoot halflings using one medium sized warrior to hide. RAW it should be possible lol. The abilty does look like it should be usable at melee since it is a bonus action used on the halflings turn and it requires a larger creature for the hiding purpose. We would just really like to be using the ability by the book or at least as intended by the designers. Also, we do not use miniatures or do positioning accurately. We just don't like that kind of detail or the miniature combat feel of the game. This edition was supposed to be friendly to people not using miniatures. It's not as bad as prior editions, but I would like to see more abilities defined clearly on how they play out in combat.

#12

arnwolf666

Feb 28, 2015 15:32:16

I am a rules light guy, but I don't think there were ever good rules for stealth in any edition of this game. I am sure they had to put alot of thought in the stealth part of the game, I just feel the instruction did not translate well to paper, or they are scattered out in too many places in the PHB. I would really love to see an official breakdown of how stealth abilities play from round to round in combat somewhere.

#13

mrpopstar

Feb 28, 2015 16:03:57

arnwolf666 wrote:

#14

jaelis

Feb 28, 2015 16:29:46

Ooh do you think a halfling can attack while in a larger creatures space? I would have said no, but maybe its worth looking at.

#15

jeff0

Feb 28, 2015 16:41:24

jaelis wrote:

#16

Coredump00

Feb 28, 2015 17:06:17

There is a lot of room for table/DM interpretation and adjudication in the Stealth rules.

Personally, I would rule it more and more difficult to keep hiding in the same spot round after round (or at least to keep getting advantage). OTOH, I also interpret the requirements to hide a bit more leniently than some others do also.

#17

mrpopstar

Feb 28, 2015 17:30:09

jaelis wrote:

#18

Noon

Feb 28, 2015 19:30:47

arnwolf666 wrote:

(Reply to #18)

arnwolf666

Noon wrote:

#20

Psikerlord

Mar 01, 2015 2:23:31

jeff0 wrote:

#21

SleepsInTraffic

Mar 01, 2015 8:28:23

My reasoning is If I hide behind a rock it doesn't matter that you'd know I'm behind there, if you can't make it to a position that can get a clear line of site on me you don't know which side of the rock I'm going to swing out from behind in order to launch my attack. You entirely know where to move to in order to take away that advantage but until such time that you make that move I have the advantage. I take it as the old west gun battle hiding behind rocks routine. For the original question of this thread though, the ghoul should have entirely circled around the paladin to keep at least putting eyes on the rogue. I mean sometimes that's not within the enemy's capabilities maybe you are in a 10 foot wide hallway and the fighters taking up the middle 5 (so the enemies would need to squeeze to get past the fighter) and the rogue keeps hiding behind the fighter then attacking and re hiding behind the fighter then that's a totally valid tactic. the enemies can't get around the fighter to get line of sight on the rogue. That I know where to find you doesn't mean you aren't hidden or just means I know how to stop you from being hidden.

#22

mrpopstar

Mar 01, 2015 9:51:56

SleepsInTraffic wrote:

#23

arnwolf666

Mar 01, 2015 13:15:47

I don't use mini's, I just imagine RAW 8 halflings within 5 foot of the Paladin all taking the hide action as a bonus action on their turn, and none of the enemies being able to see or attack the halflings. It's quite comical to me,but valid as a RAW.

#24

mrpopstar

Mar 01, 2015 13:30:07

arnwolf666 wrote:

#25

jaelis

Mar 01, 2015 13:36:21

I don't use mini's, I just imagine RAW 8 halflings within 5 foot of the Paladin all taking the hide action as a bonus action on their turn, and none of the enemies being able to see or attack the halflings. It's quite comical to me,but valid as a RAW.

(Reply to #21)

Coredump00

SleepsInTraffic wrote:

#27

mrpopstar

Mar 01, 2015 15:08:50

Coredump00 wrote:

(Reply to #27)

Coredump00

mrpopstar wrote:

(Reply to #25)

arnwolf666

jaelis wrote:

#30

mrpopstar

Mar 02, 2015 17:10:36

Coredump00 wrote: