Got into an arguement with my DM the other day over how hand crossbows work rules wise. I'm no slouch to rules, I've DMed my fair share of games in 3.5 and 4th edition, as well as a number of other tabletops, but I'm still very much learning the 5e system so I posed a question about hand crossbows due to some text that puzzled me a bit.
Question: Do I need the Crossbow Expert feat, in order to wield a hand crossbow as my main weapon, with a finesse weapon off-hand (or in the main hand) for the Defensive Duelist feat?
My DM was just as green with the rules, and advised I could not dual weild with a hand crossbow, since I need a free hand to load it, which would take an action. Loading a crossbow currently in the ruleset is not an action so this caused me to look up and research loading, since it was now the main problem. Can I load a crossbow while dual weilding? Most of the forum topics to do with this are to do with dual wielding hand crossbows which doesn't help my current case.
All and all, this is what I've discovered to do with hand crossbows:
Hand Crossbow: Ammunition (range 30/120), light, loading
-Light: A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons. See the rules for two-weapon fighting in chapter 9.
"Two Weapon Fighting: When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it."
-Loading: Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
The closest to loading the crossbow would be the "Use an Object" action, which states as follows:
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
So using just the hand crossbow's stat block, we can determine that loading it is probably part of the action of firing it, as per use an object. The problem comes in it having the light property. According to my DM, at this point, I've made the arguement that you can reload a hand crossbow, without significant action, while wielding a weapon in the other hand. However, at this point the arguement is whether you can actually WIELD both, since the two-weapon fighting action specifies light melee weapons. His put the foot down, done argueing is that both feats are needed to fire a hand crossbow standard, and defend onesself with a finesse weapon, let's say a dagger. My arguement for it continues as follows, since I'm not trying to attck with both, I just need both in my hands for their appropriate actions/reactions.
This has me thinking though without the feats, how does this all work? To the original purpose that hand crossbows would be light, if effectively it gives the weapon nothing specific. My DM's arguement, is using rogues as an example, it's an easy to conceal and stealthy weapon, but such descriptors were removed from the light weapon description of 3.5/4th. Thinking with just the rules at hand, I don't disagree persay with his ruling on it being easy to conceal, however, I think the purpose more is for reaction purposes. A rogue, or fighter, weilding a crossbow, has to method to be armed and perform an opportunity attack if someone runs by them or leaves a threatening space. This is the advantage hand crossbows have over the other crossbows as you could weild a longsword, or any other single handed weapon and still attack that way. To do so is two seperate actions, using no feats, and therefor NOT a two-weapon fighting action. My DM's current standing is without crossbow expertise, you cannot attack with both weapons, regardless of circumstance. I.E. If you attack with the crossbow on your turn, you are no longer weilding the secondary/primary weapon, though it is still in your hand because according to the rules, two-weapon fighting requires both weapons to be light, and melee.
The end result is it's two different interpretations on the rules regarding wielding two weapons. I could craft more scenarios to my point using the rules, and I assume he could do the same, so I'd like an official ruling and maybe if nessesary some errata clarifying what the light quality actually does for hand crossbows.
Happens that recent sage advice was on the subject of hand crossbows http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats
According to Jeremy Crawford, needing a free hand is not (just) part of the loading property, it's also part of the ammunition property. While the Crossbow Expert feat means you ignore the loading property, it still has the ammunition property, and so requires a free hand to load it. Which means you'd have to sheathe or drop the rapier in order to reload the handcrossbow.
You need a free hand to reload a hand-crossbow.
You can only reload it 1/turn without crossbow expertise.
1/turn you can stow or draw a weapon. Dropping weapons are free.
Hand-crossbows are "light", so you can wield it with another "light" weapon.
Therefor, you can...
1: Shoot a bunch of times with your hand-crossbow.
2: Draw a dagger
3: End your turn.
3: Use defensive dualist
4: Drop the dagger
1: shoot a bunch of times with your hand-crossbow.
2: Draw a second dagger.
...
or your DM can just allow an exception.
Though walking around with a bandoleer of daggers and constantly dropping them is kinda cool IMO.
Razintarr wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
durntaur wrote:
What you really need is a crossbow that shoots daggers 
Let's just skip the daggers and go directly to rocket-propelled chainsaws!
Wouldn't really work right here, chainsaw isn't a light finesse weapon
Noctaem wrote:
Possible to reload the crossbow using Mage Hand? I realize it takes an "action" normally.
Are there any game elements that let a character use Mage Hand (once cast) as a free action or bonus action?
curiousdragon wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
So did this get resolved in a later printing/errata for the books? I remember the volumes of hand x-bow arguments from months past. ;o)
For one, I remember that the Crossbow Expertise feat mentioned the loading "quality" instead of "property". Ha! But has the ammunition property been changed to officially require a free hand?
DungeonKrusher wrote:
Wow.
OoftaMeg... you were there with me. I can't believe it's right there in black and white, what a dozen or so of us kept going around and around and around...
Sorry to rehash. I'm honestly flabbergasted reading that. Ha!
mellored wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
DungeonKrusher wrote:
DungeonKrusher wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
DungeonKrusher wrote:
bonethug0108 wrote:
jaelis wrote:
bonethug0108 wrote:
DungeonKrusher wrote:
i see it more as fire, fire, quickdraw a dagger to parry an attack, fire, fire.
or really i'd just let them hold a dagger while reloading. no reason you couldn't hold a dagger and bolt in the same hand.
mellored wrote:
I really wiish they would analyze fighting styles as used in combat more than using movies as their source.
mellored wrote:
DungeonKrusher wrote:
bonethug0108 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
mellored wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
mellored wrote:
Actually, the first problem was "Got into an arguement with my DM..."
mellored wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Razintarr wrote:
svargth wrote:
svargth wrote:
svargth wrote:
Horwath wrote:
jonathonhawke wrote: