Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 obsid Aug 26, 2014 15:46:51	So I have gone through each of the classes, and for each class I got a fairly good idea of what I would consider a great build that would be fun to play.  Except for monk, which I am having problems figuring out what a good build would look like.   So lets start with race, I'm thinking the best race looks like a wood elf, stout halfling, half-orc.  Gives +2dex/+1 wis as a wood elf, that way you can just focus on dex (and use dex even for non-finese weapons as a monk).  Going stout halfling +2dex/+1con is fairly good for a monk, you got lucky rerolls, monk's extra speed will counter your natrual slowness, and the no heavy weapon disadvantage is fine for monks who dont use heavy weapons anyway.  Going half-orc is a little more MAD in that you need to focus on str for damage, dex a little for some ac, and wis a little, but you get extra con which is nice hp relentless endurance which is great for a monk in the middle of combat and savage attack whih is a nice bonus damage (Although I don know if unarmed attacks count, maybe hey do?).  Are there any other races to consider?  (I thought about human, but there are VERY few good feats for a monk)   Now on to my problems with the monk itself.  To use the monk's cool abilities you basicly cant wear any armor and just use unarmored defense.  Thats at best a 10+3+3=16 AC or so to start.  Thats really low its equal to a medium armor scale mail and a 14 dex or heavy armor chainmail or heavy armor ringmail/shield.  Almost every class in the game will start with equal or better AC (except casters that dont use mage armor), and you are almost required to be in melee combat to use any cool abilities.  You do get a d8 HD, which is a little better then the wizard/sorcerer, but less then the traditional melee fighters of figher/paladin/ranger (and far less then the barbs d12).   Ok so you get the marial arts feature, at first this looks really cool, an extra bonus attack every turn!  But it only does 1d4 damage for the first 4 levels.  So how is this any better then wielding a dagger in my off hand and two weapon fighting?   So in the end monks at least at first look like really gimped fighters that have a lower hd, and usually lower AC, no fighting style, no second wind, and must duel wield to use thier monk ability.   So now on to higher levels, going to level 3. Monks get Ki which is kind of cool, but in many ways it is very similar to superiority dice that fighter battle masters get.  Its a pool that can be used to augment your attacks or do some cool things with.  Lets say the monk took way of the open hand.  Monks are usually going to be using 1 of the 3 ki points to do flurry of blows to get an extra d4 attack and a dex save to knock prone or a str save to push 15 feet.  While Fighters can use 1 of the 4 supriority dice to add 1d8 damage and a trip attack maneuver to knock prone or a pushing attack to knock 15 feet.  Both of these reset on a short rest.   In short the fighter can do everything the monk can do with ki and more at level 3.   So the monk gets deflect missle which is about the best thing about the monk so far.  1d10-dex-monk level is quite a bit of damage reduction from ranged weapon attacks.  It does eat your reaction, but still its nice to have.  The return attack with ki seems just as good as Riposte maneuver by a fighter (just ranged rather then melee).   Now going even longer term, the monk is going to get a lot more flexility with extra ki points while the fighters supriority dice dont increase as quickly.  But I think this is more then offset by the fighter being able to use really good big two-handed weapons with 2d6 weapon dice.  When you are doing 3 attacks of 2d6 straight weapon dice damage at level 11 as a fighter, its going to be hard for the monk to keep up even with all that flexibility if it can only use d6-d8 weapons.  Its martial arts attacks eventually start catching up with weapon attacks doing d8 at lvl11, but still you got a fighter doing 3 attacks of 2d6 and the monk doing 2 d6 attacks + 2 unarmed flury of blows of d8 each, I cant see the monk keeping up on damage.    So maybe I'm missing something, can you explain what the advantage of going for a monk is?  Is it just flavor not mechanical at all?
#2 CorwynnMaelstrom Aug 26, 2014 19:02:27	obsid wrote:
(Reply to #2) obsid	Well that gives me at least something to work with.  So thank you CorwynnMaelstrom.  I think the key part I was missing is that each martial arts attack gets +dex or str mod (unlike two weapon fighting).  That may not seem like much, but thats what shifts the monk into doing more damage then the fighter rather then less (and at lvl5 its 4 attacks each ki round each that add dex mod).  I'm willing to accept more damage early and more flexibility later for less survivability.  I just need to understand exactly what the trade-offs are between the classes rather then seeing one as worse then the other, so thank you.
#4 CorwynnMaelstrom Aug 27, 2014 1:56:42	No problem. It's easy to miss that when you're thinking TWF, which is more common than monks.
#5 Noctaem Aug 27, 2014 5:27:42	at level 5, a monk will have 4 attacks + reaction during a standard round.  At the same level, a Barbarian can have 3 either raging and using Frenzy + Reaction or 3 using TWF + Reaction or 3 using Polearm Master + Reaction.  Here's the differences:   Say we go with the 3rd option, the Barbarian can get Great Weapon Master to gain +10 damage at -5 to hit.  Combine that with Rage (level 1 class feature) or Reckless Attack (level 2 class feature).  For an easy reference to the math, please look at this excellent post by MwaO:   http://community.wizards.com/comment/51141666#comment-51141666   Meanwhile the vanilla monk with no feat investment gets more attacks at a higher accuracy with, odds are, advantage from somewhere.  You can also split up your attacks with the monk as has already been stated.  You can also dish out status effects via prone or stunned for example.  Yes, the barbarian doing +15-17 damage statics is impressive at a glance but then you have to deal with exhaustion or having all attacks gain advantage against you until end of next turn.  And if he misses, which at +1 to hit roll twice is likely vs even a 16 AC target (could be higher in game), he gets nothing.  Meanwhile missing for the Monk is annoying but not the end of your turn since you have multiple attacks and multiple chances to do things.  Also keep in mind that the barbarian build described is specifically made to deal loads of damage.  Most players will not be using that kind of build.   More attacks is almost always better.  As is the case here.