Hide versus Surprise - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 waltron Jul 27, 2014 15:56:05	Here's my read of the rules, wanted to clarify with y'all: #1. If you succeed at a stealth check vs. a target's perception, you get to go in surprise round. 1st round of combat happens, but the surprised target can't do anything really. #2. If you succeed at a stealth check vs. a target, you are hidden. If you attack someone, you gain the benefits of being unseen, and get advantage on attacks (and, therefore, sneak attack if you like ) Thus, to both hide (aka get advantage) and surprise (aka act while your target doesn't), you need two successful stealth checks before combat starts. Is that correct? Also, DMing this, my interpretation of this is a risk vs. reward thing, right? #1. If the PCs just want to go for surprise, that's one roll. #2. PCs could go for all the marbles and ALSO be hidden! But with extra risk...Make the first Stealth roll, but fail the second? That foils the surprise, AND the previous successful hiding. Thus your first success was wasted, combat starts, and the target is neither surprised OR bamboozled by your hiding shenanigans. Does that sound right to everyone?
#2 Plaguescarred1 Jul 27, 2014 16:24:54	A single Stealth check suffice to be hidden, and thus catch a creature unaware. Note that there is no surprise round like in previous edition. Also surprised creature can do something after their first turn in the first round, they can take a reaction.
#3 Plaguescarred1 Jul 27, 2014 16:30:25	A single Stealth check should suffice to be hidden, and thus catch a creature unaware. Note that there is no surprise round like in previous edition. Also a surprised creature can do something after their first turn in the first round (they can take a reaction) BR69 Surprise: .. the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.
#4 Overpromises Jul 27, 2014 16:38:01	Only the one stealth check would be needed. Surprise and advantage are each independent of the other. A player might be hidden from an enemy that is not surprised because it detected somebody else in the party. A player might also be able to attack a surprised enemy, but not be able to gain advantage on a melee attack because the enemy was not distracted.
#5 lawrencehoy Jul 27, 2014 22:19:54	Overpromises wrote:
#6 waltron Jul 28, 2014 10:35:12	Alright, so to some extent, Surprise gets modified because you might often be fighting a group of all 1 type of monster, with identical passive perception. In that case, here's the flowchart: PCs can surprise? They roll Stealth. Rogue McSneak gets a 20. Clunk McFighter gets 8. The targets all have a Passive Perception of 10. Due to Clunk McFighter, NOBODY is surprised. However, Rogue McSneak is hidden. Rogue McSneak gets Advantage on his attack. Clunk does not. All the enemies get full turns in the 1st round. This changes when you have DIFFERENT Passive Perceptions per target, or if the monsters are surprising the PCs (and every PC has a different PP) PCs can surprise, Rogue & Clunk roll the exact same stuff. Boss enemy has a whopping 21 PP. He is not surprised. Furthermore, nobody is hidden from him. Rogue can't attack him with advantage. Lieutenant enemy has a 15 PP, which beats Clunk but not Rogue. Lieutenant acts normally in the first round. Clunk does NOT have advantage, but Rogue STILL does. Minions had an 8 PP. EVERYONE surprised them, therefore they don't act. Both Clunk and Rogue get Advantage for being hidden. So in other words, there's different levels of how MUCH you surprise a target. All the PCs might stealth successfully, getting the BEST round (hidden Advantage, no enemy attacks 1st round.) They might get the middle option: one weak link in their party ruined surprise round, but the stealthiest PCs are still hidden. And they might ALL botch, meaning combat starts normally.
#7 lawrencehoy Jul 28, 2014 22:59:37	waltron wrote:
(Reply to #7) DSZ	lawrencehoy wrote:
#9 lawrencehoy Jul 31, 2014 2:41:08	DSZ wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

waltron

Jul 27, 2014 15:56:05

Here's my read of the rules, wanted to clarify with y'all:

#1. If you succeed at a stealth check vs. a target's perception, you get to go in surprise round. 1st round of combat happens, but the surprised target can't do anything really.

#2. If you succeed at a stealth check vs. a target, you are hidden. If you attack someone, you gain the benefits of being unseen, and get advantage on attacks (and, therefore, sneak attack if you like )

Thus, to both hide (aka get advantage) and surprise (aka act while your target doesn't), you need two successful stealth checks before combat starts. Is that correct?

Also, DMing this, my interpretation of this is a risk vs. reward thing, right?

#1. If the PCs just want to go for surprise, that's one roll.

#2. PCs could go for all the marbles and ALSO be hidden! But with extra risk...Make the first Stealth roll, but fail the second? That foils the surprise, AND the previous successful hiding. Thus your first success was wasted, combat starts, and the target is neither surprised OR bamboozled by your hiding shenanigans.

Does that sound right to everyone?

Plaguescarred1

Jul 27, 2014 16:24:54

A single Stealth check suffice to be hidden, and thus catch a creature unaware.

Note that there is no surprise round like in previous edition. Also surprised creature can do something after their first turn in the first round, they can take a reaction.

Plaguescarred1

Jul 27, 2014 16:30:25

A single Stealth check should suffice to be hidden, and thus catch a creature unaware.

Note that there is no surprise round like in previous edition. Also a surprised creature can do something after their first turn in the first round (they can take a reaction)

BR69 Surprise: .. the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.

Overpromises

Jul 27, 2014 16:38:01

Only the one stealth check would be needed.

Surprise and advantage are each independent of the other. A player might be hidden from an enemy that is not surprised because it detected somebody else in the party. A player might also be able to attack a surprised enemy, but not be able to gain advantage on a melee attack because the enemy was not distracted.

lawrencehoy

Jul 27, 2014 22:19:54

Overpromises wrote:

waltron

Jul 28, 2014 10:35:12

Alright, so to some extent, Surprise gets modified because you might often be fighting a group of all 1 type of monster, with identical passive perception. In that case, here's the flowchart:

PCs can surprise? They roll Stealth.
Rogue McSneak gets a 20. Clunk McFighter gets 8. The targets all have a Passive Perception of 10.
Due to Clunk McFighter, NOBODY is surprised. However, Rogue McSneak is hidden.
Rogue McSneak gets Advantage on his attack. Clunk does not. All the enemies get full turns in the 1st round.

This changes when you have DIFFERENT Passive Perceptions per target, or if the monsters are surprising the PCs (and every PC has a different PP)

PCs can surprise, Rogue & Clunk roll the exact same stuff.
Boss enemy has a whopping 21 PP. He is not surprised. Furthermore, nobody is hidden from him. Rogue can't attack him with advantage.
Lieutenant enemy has a 15 PP, which beats Clunk but not Rogue. Lieutenant acts normally in the first round. Clunk does NOT have advantage, but Rogue STILL does.
Minions had an 8 PP. EVERYONE surprised them, therefore they don't act. Both Clunk and Rogue get Advantage for being hidden.

So in other words, there's different levels of how MUCH you surprise a target. All the PCs might stealth successfully, getting the BEST round (hidden Advantage, no enemy attacks 1st round.) They might get the middle option: one weak link in their party ruined surprise round, but the stealthiest PCs are still hidden. And they might ALL botch, meaning combat starts normally.

lawrencehoy

Jul 28, 2014 22:59:37

waltron wrote:

(Reply to #7)

DSZ

lawrencehoy wrote:

lawrencehoy

Jul 31, 2014 2:41:08

DSZ wrote: