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| #1OoftaMegNov 04, 2014 11:18:00 | I wanted to start a discussion about how to adjudicate distraction and stealth. If you believe people should be able to attack with advantage because they can hide every round behind the one tree in the middle of an empty field, I respectfully disagree. Please do not hijack this thread.
For reference, the rules on hiding are:
Hiding When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
If we assume we are not dealing with invisible skulking wood elves in the forest fighting blind opponents (or some other reason the target cannot physically see you if you can see them), it seems like it is impossible get advantage on any attack after that first turn. In addition, you only get that initial turn of advantage if the targets are surprised. If you can see them to attack, they can see you which means you can't be hidden (and don't get advantage).
That's where the "under certain circumstances the DM might allow..." comes into play. What are those circumstances and how do you decide when they apply?
The target can be distracted by several things including someone trying to chop off their head. So if a barbarian is in melee with the target, the target is at least a little distracted.
The way I've been ruling:
This does mean that it is difficult to maintain stealth for most creatures, and the attacker has to be constantly moving and hiding. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I'm still not sure how to rule on lightfoot halflings. If the halfling stays behind the barbarian, in theory they can attack every round (with cover until they take sharpshooter) and get advantage. One of the devs said they'd give the halfling disadvantage on the check, but even with what seems like a house rule it seems really powerful.
How has this been playing out in your games? |
| #2DanfmacNov 04, 2014 11:56:42 | As someone who is playing a rogue I have never gotten a surprise round or attacked from being hidden, mostly because our party is like a giant circus with clowns wearing shoes made out of trashcan lids. The only time we ever sneak is to try and avoid combat entirely and that we have done. That will probably change as time goes on but I don't feel like I have to be stealthed everywhere to be useful or within an acceptable DPR range.
Overall my rogue is doing just fine, we are still low level so extra attacks have not come into the equation but I am doing very reliable damage since our party is fairly large and almost entirely melee. We also play with flanking rules so getting advantage is not that difficult though it does mean getting my hands dirty since flanking with ranged attacks is harder than melee. Once I hit level 5 I will be more apt to melee it up as I will have uncanny dodge to help mitigate damage and make me less of an easy target.
As a DM I would not allow the halfling hiding trick to work more than once since even if it works in RAW it is rediculous and makes every other race inferior as a rogue. I still allow the defensive benefits of not being able to be targeted by spells or attacks but not the offensive benefits of getting advantage on attack. Stealth is in my mind is an opener or something that requires very unique circumstances to allow once sword have been drawn. |
| #3SaelornNov 04, 2014 12:17:28 |
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| #4Jay_Ibero_911Nov 04, 2014 12:29:10 |
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| #5SaelornNov 04, 2014 12:42:09 |
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| #6NoctaemNov 04, 2014 12:47:47 |
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| #7NoctaemNov 04, 2014 12:45:57 |
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| #8cowleymenNov 04, 2014 12:52:33 | IM not dming currently, but when I start a game in 5e I will be using the same rules that my DM currently uses. In the cases of firing from range, you have disadvantage on going hidden again, and only if you are hiding behind some form of cover or dim/dark light situations. He also gives a static bonus to people we shoot at, that increases after each turn. The point of firing from cover/hidden is that its hard to see you. Of course it becomes less hard as you attack because bow strings make nose, and when you fire an arrow, there is only one direction for it come from really. So you might get two shots off from a good hidden location, but you wont be staying hidden the whole fight. Our current party is rouge heavy (5/7 rouges, we are playing adventure league). We find this rewards crafting thinking. But once your seen, well it gets bloody. |
| #9PsikerlordNov 04, 2014 13:12:09 |
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| (Reply to #8)OoftaMeg |
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| #11SaelornNov 04, 2014 13:35:58 |
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| #12paulstraitNov 04, 2014 13:42:40 |
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| #13NoctaemNov 04, 2014 13:48:40 |
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| #14OoftaMegNov 04, 2014 13:48:42 | If I wasn't clear, yes the drow can sniper from the cover of darkness. Since they can see further in the darkness than most races, it makes them particularly nasty in scenarios were fighting in the dark (or underdark). |
| #15NoctaemNov 04, 2014 13:57:20 |
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| (Reply to #15)OoftaMeg |
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| #17paulstraitNov 04, 2014 14:23:11 |
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| #18paulstraitNov 04, 2014 14:31:35 |
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| #19cowleymenNov 04, 2014 14:25:41 |
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| #20DanfmacNov 04, 2014 15:53:36 |
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| #21RhennyNov 04, 2014 15:57:24 |
I pretty much do it like the op. I lean heavily on the "if the foe can see the creature" part, and just determine by circumstance if the foe can see the attacker.
If the rogue hides and pops up in the same spot where he was seen before, no advantage. If the rogue hides and moves and can pop out from a location that is sufficiently different (usually out of the foes field of vision) then he gets advantage. I kind of try to consider facing even in theater of the mind. |
| #22AhglockNov 04, 2014 20:24:59 | I'm pretty lenient on this. While a halflings playing whack a mole the backstabbing edition is absurd the idea people maintain constant 360 awareness is far more absurd to me. |
| #23UndrhilNov 04, 2014 21:06:46 | I don't understand why a Rogue would bother with hiding anyway, unless it's to avoid being attacked. Sneak Attack no longer *requires* advantage, so the Rogue can be in the back ranks shooting crossbow bolts at the bad guy in melee with the Fighter and still get his sneak attack damage.
Also, the enemy isn't stupid (sometimes.) If you have a Rogue popping up behind the Fighter and then disappearing and he pops up behind the Fighter again, the enemy is going to move around the Fighter (which he can do easily in most cases) and whack the Rogue. If the Rogue is smart, he is moving around and getting behind other combatants if he wants to remain hidden. |
| #24NoonNov 04, 2014 23:58:03 | You're trying to determine how to rule this?
It's really just a 'how you see it at the time it happens' thing?
If I was writing rules I'd be more technical about it - 'spots' and barbarians aren't good to use in a rule. |
| (Reply to #24)OoftaMeg |
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| #26VaristhenesNov 05, 2014 9:05:16 |
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| #27ElfcrusherNov 05, 2014 9:44:57 | My interpretations:
The "You can't hide from a creature who can see you" to me says "if you are in a creature's field of vision, you can't hide." But then specific overrides general, so Skulkers and Wood-elves can use partial obscurement. That would include approaching a creature in combat, if the obscurement (e.g. woods, fog, shadows) extends to the creature.
Out of combat, the "field of vision" is the direction the creature is facing, but in combat that field is likely to be wider. Although perhaps not a full 360 degrees, depending on the situation. (E.g., a caster in the back might not be looking over his shoulder.)
Halflings: the rules do not say that larger allies are total cover, it says you can attempt to hide even when only partially obscured by them. Which means they are not actually total cover, which means the halfling can see "through" them.
Other cases of stealthing during combat: if the target is suitably distracted, I would allow it. I.e., doesn't know there's a rogue stealthing back there, and has a good reason to be facing in the opposite direction. I can't imagine the intent of the rules is that rogues only ever to attack from stealth if they do it before combat has started. If the rogue is getting into position when his friends give away the game, it should still be possible to get the stealth attack off, as long as it's not from an obvious direction. Which is why the rules leave it up to the DM.
Repeat stealth sniping: if the target is engaged in melee with an ally from the other side of you, or is otherwise prevented from facing in your direction, I might allow it. But if it got abused I'd also have enemies rush your position, set up battlegrounds where it's hard to do, have enemies use the same trick against the players, etc.
Hopefully I don't need to now repeat that this is only my interpretation. But I did, anyway. |
| (Reply to #27)OoftaMeg |
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| (Reply to #27)Coredump00 |
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| #30NoonNov 05, 2014 17:42:50 |
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| #31NoctaemNov 06, 2014 3:51:36 |
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| #32WrithaniNov 06, 2014 10:36:24 | I don't see why this is such a big argument on these forums.. It's up to DM interpretation, so each DM is going to have the final say anyway. If I was a ranged rogue, I wouldn't bother wasting my bonus action to hide each round anyway, unless I became the target and needed to avoid attack.
Advantage lets you roll twice on your attack, and you have to spend your bonus action to do it, so no Crossbow Expert bonus attacks. Assuming you hit on a roll of (before bonus) 11 or higher (50% chance), you have a 75% chance to hit once with advantage for 1d8+ 5 + your sneak attack dice, assuming you use a longbow.
With CBE and using your bonus action on an extra attack, you still get two attack rolls and a 75% chance to his at least once. If you always attack someone in melee combat with another (which may not always be "the one you want to attack", but should be an available option 80% of the time), then you still get your sneak attack dice, with the same chance to hit at least once for 1d6 + 5 + sneak attack dice. The difference in average damage between 1d8+5+SA and 1d6+5+SA should only be 1 damage from the difference in die size. Pretty insignificant. Add onto that the 50% chance to score an ADDITIONAL attack for 1d6+5, or an average of an addtional 4.25 damage per round, and using your bonus action for an extra attack suddenly becomes, from a purely DPR standpoint, a whole lot more appealing than permanent advantage.
Though you would still have to balance 4.25 DPR versus the defensive advantage of hiding at the end of your turn, after attacking (and hoping you're not discovered). I think your chances of a creature coming to hunt you down or making an active perception check to find you are about as likely as someone getting past melee players to get to a ranged player, so I would opt for the higher DPR option. |
| #33PsikerlordNov 06, 2014 12:24:11 |
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| #34WrithaniNov 06, 2014 13:08:05 | Light crossbows, no, but hand crossbows, yes. Sorry, I don't think I specified hand crossbows in that scenario (though I was inferring it from the 1d6 weapon die). I assume the act of loading to be part of the "ammunition" feature, which lumps it into part of the attack action, just as we so easily lump the act of notching and drawing a bowstring into the bow's attack action. The loading feature accounts for the increased time it takes to load a crossbow versus a bow, but does not go as far as to say that loading is an object interaction or any other action. The loading feature simply restricts crossbows to only one attack per attack action, unless it is removed with the crossbow expert feat. Whether loading takes place before or after the attack will depend on your DM (I think it makes more sense to travel in a dangerous location with my bow or crossbow notched and ready to fire and then reload after firing than to walk around with it empty all the time.) So whether you have the extra attack feature and use two hand crossbows to make both attacks without the crossbow expert feat, or you have the feat but your DM requires you to wield two in order to use the bonus attack (like mine does), you can wield, reload, and shoot both hand crossbows every round. |
| (Reply to #34)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #35)Writhani |
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| (Reply to #36)Coredump00 |
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| #38RhennyNov 06, 2014 15:16:29 |
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| (Reply to #37)Writhani |
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| (Reply to #39)OoftaMeg |
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| #41WrithaniNov 06, 2014 19:40:00 | Done and done!
The only point I was trying to make was this if your DM is ruling cover, stealth, and advantage in such a way that is not to your liking, there are other perfectly viable options that have just as good, if not better DPR. |
| #42PsikerlordNov 06, 2014 20:36:54 |
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| #43JohnnyBlaiseNov 07, 2014 20:13:24 | im seeing a dual wielding hand crossbow warlock inside a cloud of darkness.... |
| #44Jay_Ibero_911Nov 07, 2014 20:19:16 |
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| #45paulstraitNov 09, 2014 16:42:48 |
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| #46ORC_KophNov 09, 2014 18:35:26 |
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| #47jonathonhawkeNov 09, 2014 20:57:03 |
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| #48paulstraitNov 09, 2014 21:06:30 |
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| #49PsikerlordNov 10, 2014 2:15:42 |
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| #50paulstraitNov 10, 2014 10:26:09 |
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| #51WizardVNov 14, 2014 14:55:01 |
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