Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Archon007 Jul 13, 2014 12:30:54	So after running through Cragmaw Cavern last night I had to house rule a few things. First, instant death is really viable at 1st and 2nd level. It's very easy for a player to be at 1-3 hit points and then get hit for more than their max + remaining and be instantly killed. So easy in fact that my players only had 2 fights in the first 2 sections of the Starter Set adventure and in both fights a player was instant killed.   Before we started playing as a group we had talked about this rule from the book and talked about how it really is just a negative for players only and we talked about not using it, but after seeing 2 players that would have died in 2 combats it was clear to us we are glad we didn't use it.   What we did us is instead of instant death you receive a failed death save instead. So if an attack would by RAW instant kill you, instead you where at 0 and had 1 failed death save. The other rule we got rid of was the 1 and 20 2 success - 2 fails on death saves. Again when you have a character making death saves and after a failed check you now have a 5% chance to be dead on your next check seems harsh. Then if you take into account if they fail again they have a 45% chance of dying on their next check. We just personally felt there was already a lot of risk in perma death without these added rules.   Now, I know in a few levels clerics get spells that can stabalize characters easier and instant death will be much harder when you have 30 hit points vs 6, but we didn't like the hopefully you will randomly survive until 3rd level feel.   Thoughts or experiences with instant death?
#2 obsid Jul 13, 2014 14:16:13	I think the point was that death should be a real chance of occurance, and with these rules it is.  I dont know what you are playing, but from the starter set the first two battles are harly a challenge to the party.  After that though there is a big bad boss guy (of the first tiny dungeon) and the figher was at 3 hp, with his protection giving disavantage to those that dont attack him, so the boss guy attacked him, and got a crit.  Thats 4d8+4 or so damage to a first lvl character with 3 hit points, yea that instant killed him.  (also note its a lot harder to "instant kill" if you take the normal route of only doing the static damage amounts listed, not a variable dice role which is an optional choice).   That said, death doesnt really matter all that much for the first level or two (as you can just roll a new character).  At 5th lvl the cleric can cast revivify (for 300 gp componet), as long as they died in the last minute (which means sometime right after combat).  And if its before the cleric is 5th lvl or if the cleric dies then you can bring the body back to town in the next week and find someone at one of the temples to cast raise dead for at least 500gp (thats the componet cost).   Its a bit of pain if you die at 3-4th level (too late to just re-roll) or if the cleric dies, but it only costs at least 500gp.  Depending on what the treasure is they might be able to aford that (of course as DM you could introduce some holy relic into the treasure the group finds which they can trade for someone at the temple to cast raise dead which is probably the best way to handle low level death after 2nd lvl).   If that wasnt enough you can house rule to elimiante the componet cost of revivify or raise dead, making them almost free (if they can find someone who is willing to cast it).  Then they just have to haul the body back to town.  You would still need to figure out what you want to do for TPKs (but you can decide to have them all re-roll new characters at a higher level if that occurs).
#3 FallingIcicle Jul 13, 2014 15:00:36	obsid wrote:
#4 obsid Jul 13, 2014 16:57:25	Yes I know it takes a lot of work to put together a great character that is intresting and has a lot of backstory.  But death has to be meaningful to make people scared of it.  Loosing the time spent developing what character you wanted to play seems like a small price compared to someone that is 20th lvl and has been playing that characer for years having to start over...
#5 FallingIcicle Jul 13, 2014 18:09:57	obsid wrote:
#6 Saelorn Jul 13, 2014 18:12:42	It's just weird that the instant death rules only seem to apply to level 1-2 characters. That seems like a really weird time where you'd want death to really matter.
#7 obsid Jul 13, 2014 18:18:10	rocket tag?
#8 FallingIcicle Jul 13, 2014 18:22:39	obsid wrote:
(Reply to #6) smacintush	Saelorn wrote:
#10 smacintush Jul 13, 2014 18:46:52	I frankly have a hard time with the idea that a person can be attached to a 1st level character they've barely played.
#11 iserith Jul 13, 2014 18:52:31	Taking a page from Dungeon World, the death is so sudden and traumatic that on their next turn, the character finds himself standing at the Black Gates of Death's Kingdom. The DM and player describe what the afterlife is like for the character. Death or an appropriate deity shows up and tells the PC that it's not quite his or her time and seeks to make a deal with the character - perform some quest within a set amount of time in exchange for another shot at life. Fail to live up to the promise made within that time frame and Death comes back for the character. If the character agrees to it, he or she wakes up right at the moment their friends were just beginning to mourn them and say nice things with 1 hit point and an uphill climb convincing his comrades that their current adventure may have to wait...   Consider also making encounters in the apprentice tier have failure conditions other than death. This is easy to do if monsters have some goal of their own to perform other than "kill adventurers before being killed."
#12 E-Tallitnics Jul 13, 2014 18:59:14	Not to mention the often used, "Bob died! Here's his twin brother Rob!"   Boom! Back in the game with no down time…   Learning a game takes time. I went though EIGHT magic-users (between 1st and 5th) in BECMI before I got the hang of playing that class.   My 9th made it to Immortal. (Her name was Myra.)   Plaguescarred ran a few of us through Lost Mines and we had 1 KO, and a full party–all at less that half hit points–when we finished the goblin cave.    I loved the danger that was present throughout the adventure!
#13 Archon007 Jul 13, 2014 20:17:28	smacintush wrote:
#14 Archon007 Jul 13, 2014 20:19:41	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #14) mrsrockguru	Cleric - Cantrip SPARE THE DYING enough said........   As far as getting completely waisted in one hit, it happens......
(Reply to #6) Shiroiken	Saelorn wrote:
#17 iserith Jul 20, 2014 10:32:51	Archon007 wrote:
#18 Errant Jul 20, 2014 17:15:19	smacintush wrote:
#19 Noon Jul 20, 2014 18:49:42	FallingIcicle wrote:
#20 Vatras Jul 23, 2014 9:42:36	It is the new version of the old "you die at -10 hp" rule and it works only at low levels. Damage does not get so high that it will happen at later levels at all. I will probably use my houserule that characters die when their HP drop to the negative value of their CON score.
#21 Alpizarai Jul 28, 2014 3:21:33	hmmm, not sure if there is something wrong with INstant deaht as it is...At higher levels there are spells that will do maximum damage with Overchannel (wiz level 17) so Max HP damage can come from a single maximized spell, or from a very good spell damage roll. say...Instant death a-la 3.5 would require you to roll 20, 20 and 20...to kill a contendant no hp included. So what I would use is ruling that criticals do max damage on your main-weapon dice, and roll adiitional dices as the attack requires with the rules as written--this number will hit the theshold of Terminal Death more often than not.
(Reply to #10) Akeisha	smacintush wrote:
(Reply to #3) Akeisha	FallingIcicle wrote:
(Reply to #11) Akeisha	iserith wrote:
#25 Kalani Jul 29, 2014 22:22:49	During one of our early Encounters quests, our 2nd level elven mage was insta-killed by a frost spell (forget which one). Using a circle of levitating magic that was in a frozen tower, his famous last words were "I hope there is nothing dangerous up here" as he floated upward to the next floor. Casting a light spell was his downfall. Despite being at full HP, the enemy spell dealt slightly more than 2x his max HP in damage, causing his frozen corpse to plummet to the chamber below.    Upon seeing his frozen corpse smash into the ground, my dwarven enchanter's response was equally epic. "I will take the stairs".
(Reply to #25) obsid	Kalani wrote:
#27 Kalani Jul 30, 2014 22:12:45	This was from Encounters, so it used playtest rules (which included several more spells than provided in the basic rules). Also, it was a mini-boss fight so its possible the spell/ability was a feature in the characters stat-block. The DM did not tell us the name of the spell/attack in quest, only described its effects. What I do remember however, is the attack dealt 32 damage to our 15HP wizard (the DM rolled exceptionally well on the dice).
#28 obsid Jul 30, 2014 23:02:55	I guess its possible if it was something like the cleric spell inflict wounds (just cold somehow) cast in a 2nd level spell slot (so a lvl3 character could do it), that would be 4d8 which could be 32 damage if maxed.    I dont know of any monster in the playtest that does anywhere near that kind of damage in a single hit (unless your level 5+), but I guess its possible that it was customized.
#29 obsid Jul 31, 2014 17:17:41	Here is how the adventure league rules work for low level character death:   Any character can spend 1250 gp of thier dead characters money (the party spends it on thier behalf if the player is willing), to be resurrected (or the party can donate money to help with some of the cost but is not obligated to do so).   A second option is Faction Charity. If the character is of level 1 to 4 and a member of a faction, the dead character’s body can be returned to civilization and a patron from the faction ensures that he or she receives a raise dead spell. However, any character invoking this charity forfeits all XP and rewards from that session (even those earned prior to death during that session), and cannot replay that episode or adventure with that character again. Once a character reaches 5th level, this option is no longer available.   So this allows low level characters to come back for free, but they get no benifit from the adventure they were on.  (higher level characters have to pay thier own way for deaths)