How does Charm Person work? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 truestory242 Oct 26, 2014 6:56:56	We are currently playing the starter ser and we encountered a group of bugbears. During combat the bard cast Charm Person on one of the bugbears and the it failed the save. The bugbear is then charmed for an hour. The DM let the bard give commands to the bugbbeat during that combat and several other encounters. The bugbear would follow all commands the bard gave and it became a killing machine. Is that correct? To me it seems like the DM played it more like dominate person (8th level spell) than Charm person (1st level spell). How is charm person supposed to work?
#2 Novacat Oct 26, 2014 7:10:46	Issuing commands is definitely not something that Charm Person lets you do. The creature is still under its own control, and in fact would continue to attack the party. While charmed, the bugbear cannot attack the Bard, and the Bard has advantage on social checks against the bugbear. That's it. And the spell ends if any of your party does anything harmful to it, like attack it.
#3 truestory242 Oct 26, 2014 9:54:27	So would the charmed bugbear defend the Bard and attack the other bugbears if they attack the bard?
#4 iserith Oct 26, 2014 9:59:04	Not necessarily. It's up to the DM what the charmed bugbear does. If a player wants his character to convince the charmed bugbear to fight on his behalf, he has to make the case and if the DM think it works, then it works. If he thinks it doesn't, it doesn't. If the DM thinks the bugbear may or may not help, he can call for an ability check. In this case, it's likely a Charisma check for which the bard would have advantage.
#5 slumgum Oct 26, 2014 10:01:17	What is the practical application of the druid spell "Awaken"? If a charmed creature doesn't take your commands then what would be the purpose of spending 1000g and 8 hours when it seems about as practical as speak with animals or plants.
#6 iserith Oct 26, 2014 10:08:32	Applying any spell in a practical way is entirely on the player's skill and the DM's adjudication. So choose to use charm spells with care and with an eye toward how your DM handles such interactions.
#7 truestory242 Oct 26, 2014 10:14:09	The charmed condition says A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects. The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature. It doesn't say it follows commands. The charm person spell says: "You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a W isdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you. " In in my opinion acquaintances are not going to put their life on the line for an acquaintance. I would think that it would side with the other bugbears who are it's companions or potentially friends.
(Reply to #7) OoftaMeg	truestory242 wrote:
#9 iserith Oct 26, 2014 11:02:44	truestory242 wrote:
#10 truestory242 Oct 26, 2014 11:28:01	If the bard tries to convince the bugbear to take up arms against the other bugbears does that require his action to do the persuasion check? Can he roll the charisma check and take an attack on his turn?
#11 Novacat Oct 26, 2014 11:29:57	truestory242 wrote:
#12 iserith Oct 26, 2014 11:32:29	Again, that'll depend on the DM's call, but if it were my table, I would say so, yes. It's a significant benefit and should have an action cost in my view. And to be clear, the bard isn't making a Persuasion check. He's just taking an action to try and convince the bugbear to do something. The check is something the player makes and only if I request one. I might just say he succeeds or fails outright, no roll. It depends on the player's approach to the problem.
#13 iserith Oct 26, 2014 11:36:17	Novacat wrote:
#14 Novacat Oct 26, 2014 11:54:29	iserith wrote:
#15 OoftaMeg Oct 26, 2014 12:44:40	If a PC can convince the bugbear that his allies are possessed/doppelgangers/etc maybe. It would depend a lot on player creativity.
(Reply to #13) truestory242	iserith wrote:
#17 El_Condoro Oct 26, 2014 13:21:39	I wouldn't allow Charm to make a humanoid of any kind attack anything it didn't already want to. I might say that the charmed creature would defend the charmer, but that's very different. I base this on a comparison of the effect of another 1st level spell - Command - where the list of commands is limited to one-word commands. "Attack" is not one of them because there is no scope to elaborate on the command. Attack what? etc. Charm is a social spell, it seems to me, and not really something normally used in the heat of combat. If Charm allows a caster to create an automaton then it becomes overpowered in my opinion. The downside for the caster is the "knows it was charmed by you" part of the spell - I imagine a bugbear would not take too kindly to that (if it survived that long).
#18 Coredump00 Oct 26, 2014 14:19:19	Yeah.... at best the bugbear may try an stop the others from attacking (in a non-lethal fashion) if it can be convinced there was a mistake made...
#19 iserith Oct 26, 2014 15:28:27	truestory242 wrote:
#20 Novacat Oct 26, 2014 16:54:52	Reminds me of how Captain Mal hired Jayne.
(Reply to #14) DaveDash	Novacat wrote:
#22 Novacat Oct 26, 2014 20:27:29	DaveDash wrote:
#23 iserith Oct 26, 2014 20:30:08	It's the approach that is being judged, not the style in which the player can communicate the approach.
#24 truestory242 Oct 27, 2014 5:43:40	So if the bard doesn't perform the Charisma (Persausion) check on the bugbear would it then attack the other members of the party as it was previously? This time it just leaves the bard alone.
(Reply to #24) Timborama	truestory242 wrote:
#26 iserith Oct 27, 2014 5:56:31	truestory242 wrote:
#27 SterlingRat Oct 27, 2014 11:31:53	The best use I've seen was to charm the enemy lookout, then they walked up and started a converstion. Nothing can get you better intel and guarantee surprise better than having their guard tell you exactly where everyone is inside the camp. Of course, that particular orc kept a wary eye on the dwarf and couldn't help but wonder why his old gnome buddy kept such poor company. Then they challenged him to an Axe Throwing contest and he disarmed himself. But no, I don't think a charmed creature would fight his current allies in favor of an old aquintance.
#28 OoftaMeg Oct 27, 2014 12:42:20	In a few instances I could see a charmed bugbear attacking his allies, but probably not in the middle of combat. Through a combination of illusions and/or deception if you convince the bugbear that his allies are really out to get him if he doesn't help kill them first. Or that his allies have been possessed and if he doesn't take them out he will be next, etc. Never say never in the face of ingenious player creativity.
#29 truestory242 Oct 27, 2014 14:40:11	To clear up the situation the bard cast charm person on one of the three bugbears the party was already fighting during the second turn of combat. I'm not sure If this changes anyone's opinion.
#30 iserith Oct 27, 2014 14:51:03	truestory242 wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

truestory242

Oct 26, 2014 6:56:56

We are currently playing the starter ser and we encountered a group of bugbears. During combat the bard cast Charm Person on one of the bugbears and the it failed the save. The bugbear is then charmed for an hour. The DM let the bard give commands to the bugbbeat during that combat and several other encounters. The bugbear would follow all commands the bard gave and it became a killing machine. Is that correct? To me it seems like the DM played it more like dominate person (8th level spell) than Charm person (1st level spell). How is charm person supposed to work?

Novacat

Oct 26, 2014 7:10:46

Issuing commands is definitely not something that Charm Person lets you do. The creature is still under its own control, and in fact would continue to attack the party.

While charmed, the bugbear cannot attack the Bard, and the Bard has advantage on social checks against the bugbear. That's it. And the spell ends if any of your party does anything harmful to it, like attack it.

truestory242

Oct 26, 2014 9:54:27

So would the charmed bugbear defend the Bard and attack the other bugbears if they attack the bard?

iserith

Oct 26, 2014 9:59:04

Not necessarily. It's up to the DM what the charmed bugbear does. If a player wants his character to convince the charmed bugbear to fight on his behalf, he has to make the case and if the DM think it works, then it works. If he thinks it doesn't, it doesn't. If the DM thinks the bugbear may or may not help, he can call for an ability check. In this case, it's likely a Charisma check for which the bard would have advantage.

slumgum

Oct 26, 2014 10:01:17

What is the practical application of the druid spell "Awaken"? If a charmed creature doesn't take your commands then what would be the purpose of spending 1000g and 8 hours when it seems about as practical as speak with animals or plants.

iserith

Oct 26, 2014 10:08:32

Applying any spell in a practical way is entirely on the player's skill and the DM's adjudication. So choose to use charm spells with care and with an eye toward how your DM handles such interactions.

truestory242

Oct 26, 2014 10:14:09

The charmed condition says

A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.

The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

It doesn't say it follows commands. The charm person spell says:

"You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a W isdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you. "

In in my opinion acquaintances are not going to put their life on the line for an acquaintance. I would think that it would side with the other bugbears who are it's companions or potentially friends.

(Reply to #7)

OoftaMeg

iserith

Oct 26, 2014 11:02:44

#10

truestory242

Oct 26, 2014 11:28:01

If the bard tries to convince the bugbear to take up arms against the other bugbears does that require his action to do the persuasion check? Can he roll the charisma check and take an attack on his turn?

#11

Novacat

Oct 26, 2014 11:29:57

#12

iserith

Oct 26, 2014 11:32:29

Again, that'll depend on the DM's call, but if it were my table, I would say so, yes. It's a significant benefit and should have an action cost in my view. And to be clear, the bard isn't making a Persuasion check. He's just taking an action to try and convince the bugbear to do something. The check is something the player makes and only if I request one. I might just say he succeeds or fails outright, no roll. It depends on the player's approach to the problem.

#13

iserith

Oct 26, 2014 11:36:17

#14

Novacat

Oct 26, 2014 11:54:29

#15

OoftaMeg

Oct 26, 2014 12:44:40

If a PC can convince the bugbear that his allies are possessed/doppelgangers/etc maybe. It would depend a lot on player creativity.

(Reply to #13)

truestory242

#17

El_Condoro

Oct 26, 2014 13:21:39

I wouldn't allow Charm to make a humanoid of any kind attack anything it didn't already want to. I might say that the charmed creature would defend the charmer, but that's very different. I base this on a comparison of the effect of another 1st level spell - Command - where the list of commands is limited to one-word commands. "Attack" is not one of them because there is no scope to elaborate on the command. Attack what? etc.

Charm is a social spell, it seems to me, and not really something normally used in the heat of combat.

If Charm allows a caster to create an automaton then it becomes overpowered in my opinion. The downside for the caster is the "knows it was charmed by you" part of the spell - I imagine a bugbear would not take too kindly to that (if it survived that long).

#18

Coredump00

Oct 26, 2014 14:19:19

Yeah.... at *best* the bugbear may try an stop the others from attacking (in a non-lethal fashion) if it can be convinced there was a mistake made...

#19

iserith

Oct 26, 2014 15:28:27

#20

Novacat

Oct 26, 2014 16:54:52

Reminds me of how Captain Mal hired Jayne.

(Reply to #14)

DaveDash

#22

Novacat

Oct 26, 2014 20:27:29

#23

iserith

Oct 26, 2014 20:30:08

It's the approach that is being judged, not the style in which the player can communicate the approach.

#24

truestory242

Oct 27, 2014 5:43:40

So if the bard doesn't perform the Charisma (Persausion) check on the bugbear would it then attack the other members of the party as it was previously? This time it just leaves the bard alone.

(Reply to #24)

Timborama

#26

iserith

Oct 27, 2014 5:56:31

#27

SterlingRat

Oct 27, 2014 11:31:53

The best use I've seen was to charm the enemy lookout, then they walked up and started a converstion. Nothing can get you better intel and guarantee surprise better than having their guard tell you exactly where everyone is inside the camp. Of course, that particular orc kept a wary eye on the dwarf and couldn't help but wonder why his old gnome buddy kept such poor company. Then they challenged him to an Axe Throwing contest and he disarmed himself.

But no, I don't think a charmed creature would fight his current allies in favor of an old aquintance.

#28

OoftaMeg

Oct 27, 2014 12:42:20

In a few instances I could see a charmed bugbear attacking his allies, but probably not in the middle of combat. Through a combination of illusions and/or deception if you convince the bugbear that his allies are really out to get him if he doesn't help kill them first. Or that his allies have been possessed and if he doesn't take them out he will be next, etc.

Never say never in the face of ingenious player creativity.

#29

truestory242

Oct 27, 2014 14:40:11

To clear up the situation the bard cast charm person on one of the three bugbears the party was already fighting during the second turn of combat. I'm not sure If this changes anyone's opinion.

#30

iserith

Oct 27, 2014 14:51:03