Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SiegeFlank Sep 13, 2015 9:33:01	I feel like the wording of the Heat Metal spell is fairly vague, and I'm having a hard time understanding how to interpret multiple parts of it. Additionally, it seems like it might be a balance problem.    The first point of confusion is what you're actually allowed to target. It says "one manufactured object", so obviously this makes sense for armor or a weapon, but what about a construct or a creature made of metal (i.e. Gorgons, Flying Swords). The spell says that the creature holding/wearing the object takes the damage and has to make the con save, but what if the creature IS the object? A Helmed Horror technically wears its plate armor, but Animated Armor is considered to have natural armor.   Next, the saving throw's success and failure cases really don't seem too different from each other. If a weapon is heated and the target drops it, they don't suffer any disadvantage on all attack rolls/ability checks. But it's only a light interaction to pick the weapon back up, so in the failure case their turn really wouldn't be any different from the success case. I get that the enemy could always try to steal the weapon at that point but I definitely wouldn't expect that to happen every single time the spell is used.   Additionally, why would you even WANT to succeed on the saving throw in some cases? Say you're a ranger holding a longsword and you successfully hold onto it. It might honestly be much better to just drop the sword and pull out a bow since you won't have disadvantage with it. It just seems like the con save has this really blurry line between success and failure and assumes too much of the player.   My other concern about the spell is that it's a death sentence for heavy armor users. A druid could easily cast heat metal on a knight's plate armor from 60ft away, and then run out of line of sight. The druid runs as far away as possible for the next minute, using the bonus action over and over, resulting in 20d8 fire damage from a single level 2 spell. Maybe the knight has a ranged attack, but the druid is far away, maybe behind cover, and the knight is forced to have disadvantage. It takes 5 minutes to take off that armor, so unless there happens to be a caster with dispel magic nearby, he's dead. It scales with level too.   So overall, the spell seems absolutely too strong for a level 2 spell, and many individual aspects of the spell just aren't worded in a way that's easy to interpret. Any input you guys have on this is greately appreciated. Thanks!
#2 jaelis Sep 13, 2015 9:47:12	A creature is not an object, so I wouldn't let you target a creature (even if it is an "animated" object).   I probably wouldn't target a creature's weapon unless I had some way to take it away once they dropped it. Targetting armor is a surer way to deal damage.   It's really effective against armor wearers, but in what situation would it be useful to cast it on a target and run away? Also, I'd let a creature get out of armor faster if they were willing to damage it in the process.
#3 Chaosmancer Sep 13, 2015 14:15:32	Another thing I talked to our DM about, potentially casting it on an ally's weapon to allow it to deal fire damage, since being hit is touching the weapon. For a Raging Bear Barbarian with stupid high Con the damage would have been worth it. Didn't get a chance to try it since my sorcerer ended the fight before we got to the proper turn.
(Reply to #2) Saeviomagy	jaelis wrote:
#5 Malthorn Sep 14, 2015 7:44:26	SiegeFlank wrote:
#6 Imaculata Sep 16, 2015 3:07:37	I'd argue that considering the fact that heavy armor wearing opponents are generally a tough adversary for a squishy spellcaster, it kind of balances itself out.
#7 Razintarr Sep 16, 2015 3:49:16	The spell doesn't damage the item the spell is cast on. Sure, the armor becomes heated, but it doesn't harm it. I agree with the other posters that a creature like a golem isn't a valid target, but even if it was you'd get a hot golem that takes no damage or takes disadvantage from it (a kobold sitting on it's shoulder might want to find a different seat though).   The spell is strong against armored opponents, but only against those. Casting it on a weapon or another item the target can easily get rid of isn't worth it. It's one of those spells that requires immediate action by the targets allies to break the concentration of the caster. If the target is alone, and the caster can kite him, then it's basically over for the victim. But there are plenty other spells like that. A low strength character caught in a web spell is done for. The target of a sleep spell with no allies to wake him will wake up tied up, or worse will be thrown of a cliff. The players are usually encountered as a group, so they can help eachother out with such spells. And if the DM is just sending lone knights against a group of players with heat metal, he's asking for it.
#8 AndrewJO Sep 17, 2015 23:35:53	Used this on an enemy priest with chain mail. Cast on his armor, next turn I transformed into a riding horse and ran away(You don't need to remain in range or maintain line of sight to continue to concentrate on a spell). He hit me with a spell but I passed my con save, I continued to run until I was well out of sight. Priest couldn't maintain any spells that required concentration.
#9 El_Condoro Sep 18, 2015 3:25:00	AndrewJO wrote:
#10 jaelis Sep 18, 2015 6:19:46	El_Condoro wrote:
(Reply to #10) Coredump00	jaelis wrote:
#12 cowleymen Sep 22, 2015 22:45:10	Used Heat metal and a warrior in full plate armor and destroyed him! so much fun. Whipped this spell out, and destroyed the fool!!!! PLaying a bard, its so much fun to be able to absolutely destroy some one like that, as its not something my spells let me do often.
#13 eyrieking Sep 28, 2015 21:25:26	it is definitely a strong spell, and can be a death sentance for armored enemies. It is of course limited, because many enemies don't carry around metal equipement or metal. It doesnt stop them from hurting you, and it requires concentration and bonus actions.    There are several ways of dealing with it. Obviously dealing damage to the caster or dispelling the spell are ideal. If the caster runs away to avoid taking damage from the armored dude's friends, that leaves several problems: what about your teammates? how do you know if you killed him? (a priest could just heal himself. even if its not a priest, 20d6 is "only" 70 damage). Even if you kill him, you killed one dude with a second level slot. Now you warned the bad guys that you are coming so they can ambush, trap the place, etc. What if its an enclosed area? What if you run into reinforcements and you are alone? If you don't run, you potentially made yourself a huge target to anyone who recongizes that you cast the spell (and you probably don't have that great of an AC)   In the conversation about what you can target, I would rule that you definitely can target constructs, because they ARE manufactured. Furthermore, if you look at the monster block for helmed horrors it says that they are immune to certain spells chosen by the creator. One of the suggestions is heat metal! This indicates quite clearly that the intent was to allow heat metal to target constructs.    RAW, I could see a dm saying that a construct is not an object, but I think the point of that text is specifically to rule out NON constructs like metalic dragons and gorgons. Anyway, I would argue that its still a constructed suit of armor, it just has magical energy that is animating it.