Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Simonrmoon Dec 25, 2014 6:28:12	When the beast is ordered to take the "attack" action, if it have the "multiattack" feature (e.g. the giant badger), can use it? Or it can always make just 1 attack per turn? And other features, like the Bounce of the panther? Can they use it freely?
#2 Stormborn20 Dec 25, 2014 8:32:07	No.  When they take the Attack action, they can only shove, grapple, or make a weapon attack.  Your companion should have at least one action labeled as a weapon attack, probably a bite or claw or something.
#3 Simonrmoon Dec 25, 2014 8:43:00	Ok thanks. Is this answer official? I need to show it to my players...
#4 Stormborn20 Dec 25, 2014 8:49:49	Don't have my PHB handy.  Look up the Attack action in the combat chapter.
#5 El_Condoro Dec 26, 2014 3:35:46	The Ranger's Companion (PHB p. 93) allows the ranger to effectively 'swap' his action for the Attack, Dash... action of the companion (e.g. giant badger).   The Attack Action (PHB p. 192) states "you make one melee or ranged attack" but also, "Certain features (fighter example given) allow you to make more than one attack with this action". It's basically the normal attack that takes place in a turn. If the creature is able to make extra attacks on its turn, such as the giant badger's Multiattack action, it can. Of course, that comes at the expense of the ranger's action, which is the real cost.
#6 Simonrmoon Dec 26, 2014 9:54:28	So, you're stating it can. 2 different point of view... There's a way to get an official answer from Wotc?
#7 El_Condoro Dec 26, 2014 16:03:22	They already have - in the PHB. It's now down to DM discretion if you think there is more than one interpretation.
#8 Simonrmoon Dec 26, 2014 16:47:46	Ok, I was wondering cause the difference between your answer and Stormborn's...
#9 Stormborn20 Dec 26, 2014 17:19:22	I don't really see where the ambiguity is, to be quite honest.  Sure, a DM can make whichever rules she chooses, but if we just go by the PHB, then Multiattack is not on the list of actions one may command the beast to perform.  Nor could one command a Giant Frog to use its swallow action.  You could command the Giant Frog to take the Attack action, which in turn permits the Giant Frog to make an attack.  The only attack listed for it is bite.  Giant Badger has both bite and claws labeled as attacks.   I notice that the other poster mentions Extra Attack.  The description of Extra Attack explicitly states that it alters the Attack action.  Multiattack is a distinct action.  It is listed below the Actions header in the statblock.  If you want a feature which altered the Attack action (as Extra Attack does) then it ought to be listed above the Actions header in the statblock, where other features like Keen Sight, Charge, or Pact Tactics might appear.  It would also need to mention that it is modifying the Attack action. Multiattack is distinct, much like the "Whirlwind Attack" action that Hunters get.
#10 El_Condoro Dec 26, 2014 21:39:13	I don't see any ambiguity, either: the way I read the ranger ability is that he can command the companion to take an Attack (title case) action. The Attack action incorporates its attacks (pl.) that it is allowed to make. If Multiattack is in its Attack actions description, it should be able to do what it can do as part of its Attack action. The description doesn't just allow the companion simply to make an (singular) attack, but take the Attack action, as per p. 192 of the PHB.
(Reply to #10) Macv12	El_Condoro wrote:
#12 El_Condoro Dec 26, 2014 22:35:13	Sorry, I have to disagree with that. The MM puts it under Actions: "When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or" (use ones from the PHB).   Multiattack: "A creature that can (it doesn't have to) make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack ability." There is a priviso related to OAs, too. Italics are mine.   If Multiattack is listed under its Action stat block, the monster can attack multiple times as its (Attack) action. In the aboleth example, the Multiattack action is an (Attack) action that includes multiple parts - it can do that or choose a different attack action from its Actions list (tail, enslave).   [Edit]: Just saw your edit! Note the last sentence of Attack, though - "Certain features (Extra Attack) allow you to make more than one attack with this action." It means the action may comprise more than one attack. It's not going to talk about a monster feature such as Multiattack in the PHB (probably) but the MM seems clear to me.
#13 Simonrmoon Dec 28, 2014 7:25:50	Okay... some way to ask toCrawford or Mearls about this...?
#14 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 10:22:14	Given that Beastial Fury allows your Companion to make two attacks(lower case) when you command it to use the Attack(uppercase) action, it would seem implied that Multiattack is disallowed.   The thing that specifically disallows it is the fact that Multiattack is listed under Actions and not Attack Actions, and it specifically says you make X attacks(lower case). It does not say you use the Attack action to Multiattack. You use an Action.   Edit: More specifically, under Actions in Combat, Attack(upper case) specifically says you make ONE meele or ranged attack.   Multiattack never states that it modifies the Attack action. It's only listed as an Action.
(Reply to #13) El_Condoro	Simonrmoon wrote:
#16 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 0:04:28	Probably shouldn't expect anything until after this week(with the holidays and all).
#17 El_Condoro Dec 29, 2014 0:06:26	bonethug0108 wrote:
#18 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 0:16:53	Yes I did, which specifically stated Extra Attack but not Multiattack. Being that Multiattack is only specified as an Action and not an Attack action you cannot, by the rules, say it modifies the Attack action.   Furthermore, Multiattack in the MM is listed under Actions(at the beginning of the book as well as in stat blocks) and never says it is an Attack action, just that a creature with that ability can make multiple attacks on it's turn.   Following all of that, the companion can be commanded to take the Attack action, which Multiattack does not fall under.   And like I said, it's pretty telling that BF allows them to make two attacks(lower case) when you command it to use the Attack action. Multiattack is specifically not an attack, but an ability that allows using an Action(not Attack action) to make more than one attack.
#19 El_Condoro Dec 29, 2014 0:28:09	I'm not following your reasoning when you say Multiattack is not an Attack action. Take the Giant Eagle, for example. Under its Action list is Multiattack (makes two attacks...); Beak (Melee weapon attack) and Talons (Melee weapon attack). All of them are under the Actions heading, all of them are attacks and yet you're saying Multiattack is somehow not an Attack action but the others are Attack actions. As I say, I'm not clear on how that works.   [Edit]: The Giant Eagle would not normally make a single attack because its Multiattack includes both the beak and talon attacks. A normal, most effective attack would always be its Multiattack. I don't see why a Giant Eagle companion (very cool to have) would only be able to make a beak OR talon attack.
#20 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 0:34:31	The items listed under actions are not Attack actions per se(some of them are but others are not). When you take ONE melee or ranged attack it is an Attack action. Bite is using the Attack action. Change Shape is not.   Multiattack is not taking the Attack action. It's an ability that let's you attack more than once using an Action(not the Attack action).   Basically, Multiattack is an ability and not an attack. It's no different than Change Shape in that sense.
#21 El_Condoro Dec 29, 2014 1:04:11	Hang on. There is no attack roll made in Change Shape but there is with Multiattack - more than one. "If there's ever any question ... :if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack". PHB p. 194. Clearly by that definition, Multiattack is an attack. Coming under Actions in a stat block, it's an action. Therefore, it's an Attack action.   How do you arrive at the definition of it being an ability? The name includes "attack", its description includes reference to attacks - surely it's a series of attacks.
#22 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 1:18:24	No, there is no attack roll made with Multiattack. The ability of Multiattack allows you to make multiple attacks. It is NOT an attack itself so there is NO attack roll. When you make the individual attacks you make the attack rolls. Thus the individual attacks are the attacks, and not the ability of Multiattack itself.   And in the front of the MM when they are describe it, it is listed under Actions and states that it is an ability.   Edit: Extra Attack is not an attack itself. It modifies the Attack action.   In that same vein Multiattack is not an attack itself. It allows you to take more than one attack, but does NOT say it modifies the Attack action. It is specifically worded different in the MM.   Edit2: To be even more clear, Extra Attack clearly states that you take an extra attack when using the Attack action.   Multattack clearly states that you can make multiple attacks on your turn and mentions NOTHING of the Attack action.   If it was meant to work like Extra Attack they would have worded it saying you can make multiple attacks on your turn when using the Attack action. They specifically did not word it as such.
#23 El_Condoro Dec 29, 2014 1:17:00	OK, it's an ability in the same way as being able to weild a sword is an ability but not in the same way Strength is an ability. It's a very generic "ability". It's interesting that the OA is called out as only being a single melee attack in the Multiattack description - nothing else. An OA is a reaction, rather than an action, and so this distinction makes sense. But we're talking about a full action with companions, not a reaction.
#24 El_Condoro Dec 29, 2014 1:20:49	Extra Attack is not an attack itself. It modifies the Attack action.
#25 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 1:30:35	And I'm not arguing that it would be game breaking if you allow it as a DM. I'm just reading the rules as they are written. As written you are not allowed to command your Companion to use Multiattack.   But there are two issues with that. The first is that it lessens the impact of Bestial Fury unless you allow Multiattack with both attacks. The second is that if you do allow two Multiattacks you are now bending the system too much in a direction it isn't meant to go. Whether it "breaks" anything I couldn't tell you, but that is not the intent of the rules.
(Reply to #24) bonethug0108	El_Condoro wrote:
#27 El_Condoro Dec 29, 2014 1:34:44	I think we have come to an amicable impasse. We have presented our opinions, though we do not agree. I am happy to wait for a ruling/tweet for further clarification.
#28 TheNovaLord Dec 29, 2014 1:54:52	We have been playing it as bonethug has stated The panther the ranger has is fairly useful .it soaks damage, has decent stealth and perception. It is a useful but not necessarily powerful option for the ranger
(Reply to #24) Macv12	El_Condoro wrote:
#30 Simonrmoon Jan 02, 2015 7:01:36	anyone has news?
#31 Caliburn Jan 05, 2015 2:16:21	The Beastmaster is seriously underpowered, not to mention counterinutitive and badly realised.   If it had been in the public playtest it would NEVER have passed muster...   I have proposed a bespoke version of the Ranger/Beastmaster to fix it's various issues here;   http://community.wizards.com/forum/dungeon-master-help/threads/4174116
(Reply to #30) El_Condoro	Simonrmoon wrote:
#33 Simonrmoon Jan 07, 2015 21:03:24	VEEEERY thanks!!
#34 Stormborn20 Jan 07, 2015 22:46:26	Interesting.  I guess now the question is, which actions are permitted?  Perhaps the intention is that you can command the beast to make any action it is capable of performing?  Stuff like hiding, readying, and searching.
#35 RCanine Jan 08, 2015 0:25:00	We had this discussion six months ago.   I don't think anything has changed.