Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Lanatir Sep 11, 2014 5:15:11	So.. If my player has a passive perception of 15, does that mean he never has to search for anything hidden anymore that is DC 15 and less?? I totally dont get it at all. That would be way too powerful, considering the highest DC for ANYTHING is 20.
#2 mellored Sep 11, 2014 5:23:54	Passive Perception is like AC, or DC.  The monster, and traps, and secret doors roll stealth checks against it.   i.e.  if a creature was trying to sneak up on your player, the DM would roll 1d20 + 5 vs 15.   This way you can keep the roll hidden, and the players won't roll the resut.
#3 Lanatir Sep 11, 2014 5:31:03	Ok. So passive perception does NOT mean that a character walks into a room and automatically detects everything hidden like traps or secret doors or hidden items when the DC is below their passive perception? Cause thats how it reads to me. (I havent touched 4E, thats why this concept is very alien to me)
#4 Yunru Sep 11, 2014 5:31:08	Oh (s)he does. Where you're mistaken is the assumption that 20 is the highest DC.
(Reply to #4) Lanatir	Yunru wrote:
#6 Yunru Sep 11, 2014 5:37:30	Oh? Because I'm looking at it right now and I see this: T y p i c a l D i f f i c u l t y C l a s s e s Task Difficulty DC Very easy 5 Easy 10 Medium 15 Hard 20 Very hard 25 Nearly impossible 30
#7 Lanatir Sep 11, 2014 5:49:39	Im not sure where i read that the highest skill check is a 20. But still, whats the point of people walking into a room and you immediately go like...oh...your passive perception is 18, so here is a list of all the hidden things in this room. Not to mention that it makes rogues completely redundant when every banana can find traps without even looking.
(Reply to #7) Alynn	Lanatir wrote:
#9 nightwalker450 Sep 11, 2014 6:06:26	Alynn wrote:
#10 Lanatir Sep 11, 2014 6:19:19	Actually i will tend to either not use passive perception at all or restrict it to only work on creatures.
#11 Yunru Sep 11, 2014 6:21:01	Well then you're gimping your players unneccissarily. The game was designed for passive perception to work the way it works. I can't speak for what your changes would do, but at the very least inform your players.
(Reply to #9) Alynn	nightwalker450 wrote:
#13 mellored Sep 11, 2014 6:30:03	Lanatir wrote:
#14 Yunru Sep 11, 2014 6:36:27	mellored wrote:
#15 mellored Sep 11, 2014 6:42:22	Yunru wrote:
#16 Bumamgar Sep 11, 2014 6:44:46	It tends to be very inconsistent, but there is also precedence in the starter set for a trap or secret door to have two DCs, one for passive, and one for active.  In general, the passive perception DC is a bit higher than the active.   For example (from LMoP):   Trap. The dusty plaster and rubble in front of the door leading to area 8 conceals a copper tripwire connected to linchpins hidden in the ruined ceiling. Spotting the tripwire requires a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of at least 20, or a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Perception) check if characters are actively searching for traps in the area.   It's not very clearly called out in the 'rules' (basic rules, PHB, etc) but a read through of the starter-set adventure helps provide guidance on how to properly apply perception, both active and passive.   The one thing that I find increasingly unclear (as it is inconsistantly applied in the adventures) is the difference between Wisdom (Perception) with Intelligence (Investigation).   There seems to be a bit of overlap there, and almost all traps and secret / hidden items call for a Wisdom (Perception) checks in both the Starter Set and HotDQ.   In LMoP, an Investigation check is only called for three times: once to find a map sewn into the cover of one of a handful of tomes on some shelves, once to determine that jeweled eyes are actually fake, and once to determine that a bridge is rigged to collapse (although apparently the Investigation improperly identifies this as 'faulty construction')   HotDQ calls for Investigation checks 6 times, all of which involve actively searching for hidden items (hidden slivers in oatmeal, information about footprints around a wagon (why that wasn't Survival I don't understand), a hidden compartment, selecting a proper tunnel to follow when swimming in pitch darkness, a hidden compartment, and a trapped lock).   In both adventures, Perception is used many times (32 in HotDQ, 27 in LMoP), dealing with finding hidden creatures, but also noticing traps and even in a few cases magical effects on objects.   So at least for the currently published adventures, Perception is significantly more useful than Investigation...
#17 Yunru Sep 11, 2014 6:46:42	mellored wrote:
#18 Bumamgar Sep 11, 2014 6:58:23	mellored wrote:
#19 mellored Sep 11, 2014 7:04:16	Yunru wrote:
#20 Yunru Sep 11, 2014 7:42:16	Me be herp derp. How me mis Expertise being written there with every post me no no. But seriously, no idea how I read "Expertise" and thought "He hasn't accounted for Expertise"!   To redeem myself: The highest (non-outside influence (item included)) passive perception is 10 [Base] + 5 [Stats] + 5 [Observant] + 6 [Proficiency] + 6 [Expertise], or 32.
#21 Timborama Sep 11, 2014 8:26:20	I think you're mostly confused between Investigation vs. Perception?   You're not the only one, though, as they are similar enough to cause this confusion. It's up to you, as a DM, to make them different enough and FEEL different enough for both to have their uses, without rendering the other useless. And to also balance the game around...   Edit: Also, I agree you should wait for the DMG, also, because they WILL talk about traps, including how to set proper DCs for active vs. passive checks (for both perception and investigation)
#22 BW0222 Sep 11, 2014 8:57:37	Lanatir wrote:
#23 VanRicter Sep 11, 2014 10:16:28	Not sure if this was covered but if you character has disadvantage, such as perception in dim light, you are considered to have disadvantage.  Disadvantage on passive checks amounts to a -5 so just walking through a room doesn't necessarily mean they notice a hidden door in a back corner unless they pass withing 20 feet (if using light spell).
#24 Bumamgar Sep 11, 2014 10:25:32	BW0222 wrote:
#25 KarlB Sep 11, 2014 10:31:19	The whole point to Passive Perception is so your DM doesn't give away important surprises by telling their players to suddenly role dice out of the blue. It automatically puts them on guard and they'd find any excuse to draw their weapons and start actively looking around.   This way, you mantain a level of suspense in your story.
#26 Bumamgar Sep 11, 2014 10:54:57	That is certainly a big part of it.  However, it's also to streamline play.  If you couldn't passively spot traps and secret doors, play can bog down as players start stopping every 10 feet to roll active checks, to make sure they don't miss anything.  This often depends on how often the players have found themselves caught in traps, or generally tends to happen for a session or two right after the players fall into a trap they missed.   If the DM is allowing them to spot traps and secrets via passive perception, and only asking for rolls when the players specify something specific (I want to search the dresser!), it allows for the element of surprise but also gives the players a chance to spot the pit trap before they fall into it without requiring die rolls for every 10' for movement.   Additionally, it helps remove the metagame aspect of the player knowing they made a poor roll and then trying to find some excuse to re-roll.  Most often this comes into play when the party scout rolls a 1, and then everyone else in the party, even the lug with Wis as a dump stat are suddenly interested in rolling perception checks.  Having this all resolved by using passive Perception scores simplifies and streamlines things.  A good DM will even incorporate the check into the description of the scene...   You enter the room, there are crates and barrels everywhere and a thin coating of dust on the floor.   Gilfandor notices, however, the gleam of light coming from under the edge of one of the crates.  There appears to be a trap door beneath it.   This represents the fact that Gilfandor has a passive Perception score higher than the DC required to spot the secret trap door.  No one made any rolls, the situation resolved quickly, but Gilfandor's player feels like his character has done something and is rewarded for building a character with good Perception.  If no one had a passive score high enough to spot the trap door, the party might have still been suspicious and announced their intention to search the room.  Now, active perception comes into play, but the DC required to find the secret door should be reduced to represent the fact that it is easier to find something when you are actively looking for it.
(Reply to #26) kueryd	Bumamgar wrote:
#28 Psikerlord Sep 11, 2014 18:57:12	Passive perception says its for two things: (1) representing doing something over and over as an average roll (to avoid the "i keep searching till I roll a 20" issue), and (2) for use when you dont want to tip your players off to something by asking them to roll to spot an ambush or a trap or whatever.   I personally dont like the mechanic much and it first appeared in 3e with take 10 and take 20, then crystallized into passive perception i think in 4e. As for (1), I much prefer the rule that you cant try something more than once, unless circumstances change. And as for (2) the DM can simply roll in secret for PCs whenever he needs to, or get players to pre-roll some perception checks at the start of each session (and randomly choose one when you need to use it).   But... overall I dont think it's tooooo bad against ambushes or other things where a stealth check is required, bec there is still a randomness element there.   My main problem with passive perception is (i) a single player with the highest passive perception tends to get all the spotlight time with saving the party from traps, ambushes, etc, which I find rather annoying. And (ii) traps with a fixed DC are either auto detect or auto fail. So when I as DM am setting a trap DC, I already know what the players passive perception is.... and basically, I am choosing whether they get hit by the trap or not. DODGE!   I am personally toying with the idea of treating trap DCs as a "passive" stealth check for them, and will instead roll the trap stealth check, and compare it to the PC passive perception. I dunno.   Course I rule that anytime a player says he's on alert, he can roll a perception check whenever he wants. And, often times, for ambushes and so (when I'm about to call for initiative) I just get players to roll perception checks - there's no issue about hiding the ambush at that point, the fight is on, it's just a matter of who is surprised and who isnt.   Also, mid fight, if someone tries to hide, I treat that as a contest between the hider rolling stealth and the observer rolling perception. So the observer gets a free active perception check as the hider tries to hide. If he does hide, then the PC is back to relying on passive perception unless he takes an action to make a perception roll.   If you dont like passive perception though just dont use it. It's easy enough to ignore, and just have the observant feat give adv on perception checks instead (there is a suggestion somewhere that +5 on passive perception is about the equivalent of adv on perception checks).
#29 Keendk Sep 11, 2014 20:36:40	My group uses passive perception the Gumshoe way; basic clues.   A secret door in a passage is not in-play until the players (not pcs) know it's there, as a DM it's your job to populate the game world with exciting wonders for the players to explore. A missed secret door is a non-play item that the players can't interact with, so it hasn't added to the excitement of the play, so it's failed it's purpose of adding excitement to the game.   The gumshoe way is to give the players the nesceserry clues to act upon the game world, so in the secret door example the players might feel a draft in the passage with a failed passive perception, notice a draft from a specific place on the wall with a successful one. Then they can bring their other skills in to play to figure out what the clue means, and how to interact with it. "but then my players will always find the secret door" ....yep, but they won't always be able to do anything with it. They might fail in finding the opening mechanism, or there might not even be one on their side, but now that they know the door is there and they can interact with it and it as an in-play item that is making the world mysterious and wonderful.   Same with traps, how dull would Indiana Jones be if we didn't get introduced to the danger of "there might be something wrong with that floor!" Before he steps on the stones and plummets to his death. Let the players be chased by Pygmy drows so there's a time element that they have to contend with as well, makes traps a lot more fun than the "roll, oh you succeeded/failed to notice" binary approach....in my opinion ;)   It's a different mindset compared to the binary die arbiter, but we found it quite easy to slip in to and have had much better game experiences for it, and with passive perception it doesn't even require any hard rules changes.   //edit note I'm trying to condense an entire books rules in to 3 small sentences, so it might not immediately make sense. Also, examples are there to highlight the text, not as stand alone arguments.