Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jaelis Jul 12, 2014 10:27:13	If you are invisible and carrying a torch, can you see in the dark? Can other creatures see your light?   If you use silent image to create an illusion of a torch, can you see in the dark? (If not, what about major image?)   If you are carrying a torch and use minor illusion to create a box around it, can you still see? Can an opponent or ally who saves against the illusion see?   If your opponent casts darkness on a stone, can you use minor illusion to create a box around it so that you can see? If so, would a creature who saves against the illusion be able to see?
#2 pauldanielj2 Jul 12, 2014 11:18:05	jaelis wrote:
#3 Unahim Jul 12, 2014 12:32:49	jaelis wrote:
#4 pauldanielj2 Jul 12, 2014 14:02:33	Unahim wrote:
#5 Unahim Jul 12, 2014 17:06:19	I really, really doubt anyone at Wizards was thinking of photons when they wrote the rules. The easiest way to handle it is just to forget particle physics altogether. Even what you said about photons bouncing off illusions cannot be right. If that were true, then how would disbelieving help you see through illusions? If the photons are bouncing off, then they will not be affected by disbelief.   Illusions do not place anything into the world. They directly target the mind (hence, mind-effecting) and edit your perceptions. There are no illusion photons, or illusionary smell molecules, or the like. The sensor input is directly dumped into your mind, without going through your senses proper.
#6 pauldanielj2 Jul 12, 2014 18:02:27	page 80 wrote:
#7 obsid Jul 12, 2014 18:18:32	They haven’t said at all HOW illusions work, so there are several possibilities on how it works in the game and your dm would have to decide which one is how it works   1) maybe its creating a surface that only light can bounce off of, but not a real substance only reflecting light.  (that would lead to the conclusion that you cant create a light source that affects anything outside the effect range as all the photons had to already exist (you are merely changing the colors and direction), but that you can put a box around a real light source and block the light even out side of the area of effect).   2) maybe its sending out photons of light itself of the Illusion and nothing is bouncing off anything. (that would suggest you can create an illusionary light that illuminates outside the area of effect, but that you cant create a box around a real light source because the illusion wouldn’t be able to have a physical effect on the photons)   3) maybe it just effects the mind of anyone looking at the area to make them think they see something that isnt really there (that suggests you can create a light, but probably not effecting anything outsdie the area of effect, and you can block a real light source by putting it in an illusionary box within the area of effect, but outside the area of effect they would see objects lit by a light they couldnt see the source of)   So I would say pick one of those three options by your DM on how illusions work.
#8 AH_schulerta Jul 13, 2014 7:53:22	IMO, Illusions require light to work. Therfore a box around the point of origin of a darkness spell wouldn't work because you cannot see the illusion. An illusory torch only works if there is other light in the area, if you are in pitch black you can create the image of it in your mind but it fails to illuminate what your mind cannot already see.    Invisibility is less clear cut for me. It is such a staple of fantasy fiction and rpgs. How it works is never very well described. In the LoTR movies it seems like an overlapping plane of existence, similar to the ethereal plane, yet it allows the user to interact with the standard plane of existence while remaining in this other plane. Clash of the Titans (old one) when Perseus put on his helmet you could still hear him and see his footsteps. Harry Potter it was an object that forced an observer to see what was on the other side of the subject, almost like it was bending the light around the subject (imagine how much mass the subject would have to have to make that work). In Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol it is a screen that projects an image of what is opposite of the subject(s). I like this one personally, but it is too complex. I imagine the spell would create a myriad of planes to project an image on that shows there is nothing there. So, in that case a torch would cast light on the surfaces around the subject and the invisibility spell would really trip out the observer as it redraws the reflected light from the opposite side. To keep it simple though I will stick with the Clash of the Titans invisibility and if the subject is carrying a torch it is invisible too and does not illuminate anything, for the subject or the observer.
#9 Noctaem Jul 13, 2014 8:29:36	I can't help but facepalm at this thread.
#10 jaelis Jul 13, 2014 19:39:20	I think I like Unahim's interpretation, that illusions and invisibility are all in the viewer's head. It is weird that the viewer could be very far away, but it's not really any kind of problem. And I think it gives a sensible answer for all these kinds of scenarios.   This would suggest that you could use an illusion to make a creature see light in the area of a darkness spell, or hear a sound in the area of a silence spell. I wonder if that could be problematic?
#11 Caliburn101. Jul 14, 2014 6:39:59	Thne invisibility spell makes you NOT interract with, or emit light.   So the torch would be invisible and wouldn't light up anything - giving out no light.
#12 Saeviomagy Mar 26, 2015 20:47:43	While invisible, you still generate light from a carried torch. Illusionary (non phantasm) torches generate illusionary light. People who save vs an illusion can still perceive it, they can just choose to ignore it. Illusionary boxes around torches block light. Illusionary boxes around darkness sources do nothing. The darkness field doesn't interact with the illusion at all.   The reason for all of these centres around how light and vision work - In cases where the spell does not need to affect something in order to appear real without interaction, the spell does not affect the thing.   An illusionary torch has to produce light, otherwise illusionary torches always look fake. An illusionary box has to block light, otherwise all solid illusions would be obviously transparent. Nothing else in your examples has to interact in order to create realistic illusions.
(Reply to #12) OoftaMeg	Saeviomagy wrote:
(Reply to #4) transcendantviewer	pauldanielj2 wrote:
#15 RPGBG Mar 28, 2015 1:37:23	I have always assumed that the universe is being ruled by laws of magic that immitate our laws of physics/chemistry/quantom mechanics only on a very ridimentary levels. If Quantom Mechanics interactions were actually present in the universe - they would have long ago been exploited by beings with 30 inteligence and above.   Invisible does not mean "you don't interract with light", it means - other creature can't see you. I would say that if you carry a torch you can see the torch and the light it provides and other creature can't. The light it provides is part of the torch and you carry it. It is obvious that you can move the light by moving the torch so they are obviously one whole thing (a lit torch).   I would say that you can see with a silent immage of a lit torch, but it only provides light in a 15 foot cube.   I would say the box arround a torch will work for anyone who is not disbelieving the illusion.   Covering the source of darkness with completely opaque object does block it, but I would say that you need major image for that since silent image is lower level than the darkness spell. While the silent image is completely opaque - it is not an object, it is the illusion of an object.
#16 celtwarrior Apr 01, 2015 19:19:12	now, love i attempting to explain magic via physics but lets be careful.  thus far it has been mostly cherry picking parts of phyics.  its kind of like saying gobal warming is false becuse its cold today.  people have been talking about the the particles of light, what about the duality of light:  waves  and particles?  what is the spaceing of the parts that make up an illusion? could there be gaps that are invisisble to the naked eye, but would allow constructive/destructive wave interaction [e.g. youngs' slit experiment].  is an illusion continuous?  is that possible? what about quantum tunneling, strange action at a distance?  the experts in partical physics don't have all the answers in the real world, how can we then jump into knowing in the made up world?