Initiative bonuses? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tyrionlannister2113 Jul 06, 2015 14:21:30	As far as rolling for Initiative by making a Dexterity ability check, when you have multiple sources allowing you to apply your proficiency bonus to Initiative such as the Bard's "Jack of all trades" ability, and the fighter's "Remarkable Athlete" you would only choose one to use, correct? Would the spell "Guidance" be able to be stacked onto either of these as well, since it does not involve a proficiency bonus, just adding the roll of a d4 to it?
#2 jaelis Jul 06, 2015 14:45:18	Yes, if multiple abilities let you add your proficiency bonus, then you still only get to add it once. The bonus from Guidance is separate and stacks.
#3 tyrionlannister2113 Jul 06, 2015 14:47:32	Thanks!
#4 Coredump00 Jul 07, 2015 2:12:27	The next question is...... Will Remarkable Athlete or JoaT be enough to allow the Rogue's Reliable Talent feature to trigger?
#5 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 7:47:58	Coredump00 wrote:
#6 Yunru Jul 07, 2015 8:43:54	Well half your proficiency is still your proficiency, just halved. So... technically yes? ETV.
#7 FrogReaver Jul 07, 2015 8:58:04	tyrionlannister2113 wrote:
#8 jaelis Jul 07, 2015 12:56:15	If you ask me, adding half your prof bonus isn't the same as adding your prof bonus, so I wouldn't let either work with Reliable Talent. And if you ask me again, I'd say that JoaT and Remarkable Athlete don't stack. The both tell you to add half your prof bonus to the roll, so if you have both then you add half your prof bonus to the roll.
#9 Yunru Jul 07, 2015 13:35:01	It's one or the other. Either it counts as adding your proficiency- in which case they don't stack, but Reliable Talent works; or it doesn't- in which case it stacks but reliable talent doesn't work.
#10 jaelis Jul 07, 2015 13:43:20	Yunru wrote:
#11 Yunru Jul 07, 2015 13:50:55	Because the only rule about bonuses not stacking is when something adds your proficiency bonus. And Reliable Talent works on any ability check you add your proficiency to. So they stack (doesn't count as adding poficiency), or it works with Reliable Talent (counts as adding your proficiency).
#12 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 14:15:26	jaelis wrote:
(Reply to #12) Yunru	mrpopstar wrote:
#14 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 15:50:32	Yunru wrote:
#15 Yunru Jul 07, 2015 16:06:16	To be fair that bit seems pretty clear cut: counts as proficiency = doesn't stack, otherwise: stacks. It's Reliable Talent that needs clarifying. ... And whether it's proficiency or not for stacking. But RT is the bigger issue.
#16 ZHDarkstar Jul 07, 2015 16:25:43	mrpopstar wrote:
#17 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 16:31:55	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #17) Yunru	mrpopstar wrote:
#19 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 16:48:19	Yunru wrote:
#20 Yunru Jul 07, 2015 16:58:04	J a c k o f A l l T r a d e s Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus. R e l i a b l e T a l e n t By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll o f 9 or lower as a 10. Relevent parts: you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll o f 9 or lower as a 10.
#21 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 17:20:03	Yunru wrote:
#22 jaelis Jul 07, 2015 17:22:05	The proficiency bonus rules say Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be multiplied or divided (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. For example, the rogue’s Expertise feature doubles the proficiency bonus for certain ability checks. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once.
#23 Danny_Montanny Jul 07, 2015 17:25:48	Adding half of the bonus still counts as adding the bonus. Are you adding your proficiency bonus? Yes, but only half of it. So, you're adding your proficiency bonus, treat a roll of less than 9 as a 10.
#24 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 17:26:58	jaelis wrote:
#25 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 17:31:30	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #25) Yunru	mrpopstar wrote:
#27 jaelis Jul 07, 2015 17:44:01	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #27) Yunru	jaelis wrote:
#29 jaelis Jul 07, 2015 18:02:50	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #29) Yunru	jaelis wrote:
#31 jaelis Jul 07, 2015 18:46:17	My read of the prof bonus rule is that you only get to add one single multiple of your prof bonus to a check. But it isn't the clearest text in the book, if you think it means something else, go for it. (Though I suppose that if you read it that JoaT and RA do stack, then logically JoaT and Expertise would stack too, which almost has to be wrong.)
#32 tyrionlannister2113 Jul 07, 2015 20:59:02	So anyone get a clarification tweet yet? I feel like after reviewing this issue more I'd agree that adding half of the profiiciency bonus still counts as adding your proficiency bonus, and that Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades allow the Rogue's Reliable Talent feature to trigger, as both turn regular ability checks not using skills into ability checks you use your proficieny bonus with. I'd also say that by that logic, Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades don't stack, and it's a "pick either but not both" situation.
#33 SilentSin Jul 08, 2015 0:23:29	I agree with Yunru. This isn't something you can have both ways. If adding half prof counts as adding prof: Then Jack of All Trades and Remarkable Athlete both count as adding prof. According to the prof rules, this means they don't stack. And since they count as adding prof, that means they do trigger Reliable Talent. Else Jack of All Trades and Remarkable Athlete do not count as adding prof. This means the prof rules don't stop them from stacking. And since they don't count as adding prof, that means they do not trigger Reliable Talent. As with much of 5e, the rules are ambiguous as to which case should be applied. Personally, I think the intent of the prof rules is something along the lines of "you can only add your proficiency bonus (or any multiple thereof) once to any given roll", meaning I'd go with the first case. Jack and Remarkable don't stack, but they do trigger Reliable Talent.
#34 Danny_Montanny Jul 08, 2015 4:53:00	So Reliable Talent doesn't work with Expertise because you're not adding your proficiency bonus any longer, you're adding a different bonus? Doesn't really fit, does it? A bonus is a bonus, the number is irrelevant. The proficiency bonus represents training, anything that adds the bonus (or a derivative thereof) means you have that training, no matter if it's some training, the normal amount, or exceptional training.
#35 mrpopstar Jul 08, 2015 5:00:30	Tweeted... @JeremyECrawford How do Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent interact?
#36 sim-h Jul 08, 2015 5:03:30	Jack of All Trades and Reliable Talent are diametric opposites in terms of semantics ('you're quite good at everything' vs 'you're very good at certain specific things'). I would always rule they do not stack.
#37 mrpopstar Jul 08, 2015 5:17:35	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #34) SilentSin	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#39 mrpopstar Jul 08, 2015 5:27:10	SilentSin wrote:
(Reply to #39) SilentSin	mrpopstar wrote:
#41 Danny_Montanny Jul 08, 2015 7:32:49	There is no distinction between proficiency and proficiency bonus. If you get the bonus (or a derivative thereof), then you're proficient. If something says you're proficient, then you get the bonus (or a derivative thereof). So there is no "chosen proficiency". There's just proficiency and the bonus (or a derivitave thereof) it grants. "Two of X" isn't the same thing as "X", though no one has a problem with Reliable Talent and Expertise mixing. If Reliable Talent only works with "X" then Expertise would be out the window. So, proficiency means that you have the training, focus, and talent to do a particular thing. Jack of All Trades simply means that you have training, focus, and talent with a whole variety of things. Just because I don't have as much training, focus, and talent as the next guy in a particular thing, doesn't mean I don't have any training, focus, or talent in said thing. Therefore I am proficient, even if only a little bit, in said thing. If I'm proficient, and have trained hard enough (enough Rogue levels), I can rely on that training, focus, and talent to pull me through when my success is uncertain.
#42 sim-h Jul 08, 2015 7:49:56	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #42) Yunru	sim-h wrote:
#44 jaelis Jul 08, 2015 8:32:29	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#45 sim-h Jul 08, 2015 8:46:07	Yunru wrote:
#46 Yunru Jul 08, 2015 8:49:30	So what your saying is... if my proficiency bonus is 2... and my dex bonus is 2... then I have proficiency with all dex based skills? :D After all I'm adding 2 to them.
#47 shintashi Jul 08, 2015 9:33:33	I'm inclined to believe if the source for the bonus is the same, then you use the highest interpretation of that bonus. I might be inclined to let two halves equal a whole. For example, if you had two abilities, one giving you +1/2 your proficiency bonus, and the other giving you +1/2 your proficiency bonus, I would let that stand as "+your proficiency bonus". However, I would not condone a x1.5 your proficiency bonus. also, if the ability is titled the same thing, even if the mechanics are different, it is easy to rule they don't stack.
#48 Yunru Jul 08, 2015 11:51:37	Easy but not correct, RAW.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

tyrionlannister2113

Jul 06, 2015 14:21:30

As far as rolling for Initiative by making a Dexterity ability check, when you have multiple sources allowing you to apply your proficiency bonus to Initiative such as the Bard's "Jack of all trades" ability, and the fighter's "Remarkable Athlete" you would only choose one to use, correct? Would the spell "Guidance" be able to be stacked onto either of these as well, since it does not involve a proficiency bonus, just adding the roll of a d4 to it?

jaelis

Jul 06, 2015 14:45:18

Yes, if multiple abilities let you add your proficiency bonus, then you still only get to add it once.

The bonus from Guidance is separate and stacks.

tyrionlannister2113

Jul 06, 2015 14:47:32

Thanks!

Coredump00

Jul 07, 2015 2:12:27

The next question is...... Will Remarkable Athlete or JoaT be enough to allow the Rogue's Reliable Talent feature to trigger?

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 7:47:58

Coredump00 wrote:

Yunru

Jul 07, 2015 8:43:54

Well half your proficiency is still your proficiency, just halved. So... technically yes? ETV.

FrogReaver

Jul 07, 2015 8:58:04

tyrionlannister2113 wrote:

jaelis

Jul 07, 2015 12:56:15

If you ask me, adding half your prof bonus isn't the same as adding your prof bonus, so I wouldn't let either work with Reliable Talent.

And if you ask me again, I'd say that JoaT and Remarkable Athlete don't stack. The both tell you to add half your prof bonus to the roll, so if you have both then you add half your prof bonus to the roll.

Yunru

Jul 07, 2015 13:35:01

It's one or the other. Either it counts as adding your proficiency- in which case they don't stack, but Reliable Talent works; or it doesn't- in which case it stacks but reliable talent doesn't work.

#10

jaelis

Jul 07, 2015 13:43:20

Yunru wrote:

#11

Yunru

Jul 07, 2015 13:50:55

Because the only rule about bonuses not stacking is when something adds your proficiency bonus. And Reliable Talent works on any ability check you add your proficiency to. So they stack (doesn't count as adding poficiency), or it works with Reliable Talent (counts as adding your proficiency).

#12

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 14:15:26

jaelis wrote:

(Reply to #12)

Yunru

mrpopstar wrote:

#14

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 15:50:32

Yunru wrote:

#15

Yunru

Jul 07, 2015 16:06:16

To be fair that bit seems pretty clear cut: counts as proficiency = doesn't stack, otherwise: stacks.

It's Reliable Talent that needs clarifying.

...

And whether it's proficiency or not for stacking. But RT is the bigger issue.

#16

ZHDarkstar

Jul 07, 2015 16:25:43

mrpopstar wrote:

#17

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 16:31:55

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #17)

Yunru

mrpopstar wrote:

#19

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 16:48:19

Yunru wrote:

#20

Yunru

Jul 07, 2015 16:58:04

J a c k o f A l l T r a d e s
Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency
bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that
doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus.

R e l i a b l e T a l e n t
By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until
they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability
check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can
treat a d20 roll o f 9 or lower as a 10.

Relevent parts:

you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus.

Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll o f 9 or lower as a 10.

#21

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 17:20:03

Yunru wrote:

#22

jaelis

Jul 07, 2015 17:22:05

The proficiency bonus rules say

Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be multiplied or divided (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. For example, the rogue’s Expertise feature doubles the proficiency bonus for certain ability checks. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once.

#23

Danny_Montanny

Jul 07, 2015 17:25:48

Adding half of the bonus still counts as adding the bonus. Are you adding your proficiency bonus? Yes, but only half of it. So, you're adding your proficiency bonus, treat a roll of less than 9 as a 10.

#24

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 17:26:58

jaelis wrote:

#25

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 17:31:30

Danny_Montanny wrote:

(Reply to #25)

Yunru

mrpopstar wrote:

#27

jaelis

Jul 07, 2015 17:44:01

Danny_Montanny wrote:

(Reply to #27)

Yunru

jaelis wrote:

#29

jaelis

Jul 07, 2015 18:02:50

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #29)

Yunru

jaelis wrote:

#31

jaelis

Jul 07, 2015 18:46:17

My read of the prof bonus rule is that you only get to add one single multiple of your prof bonus to a check. But it isn't the clearest text in the book, if you think it means something else, go for it.

(Though I suppose that if you read it that JoaT and RA do stack, then logically JoaT and Expertise would stack too, which almost has to be wrong.)

#32

tyrionlannister2113

Jul 07, 2015 20:59:02

So anyone get a clarification tweet yet? I feel like after reviewing this issue more I'd agree that adding half of the profiiciency bonus still counts as adding your proficiency bonus, and that Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades allow the Rogue's Reliable Talent feature to trigger, as both turn regular ability checks not using skills into ability checks you use your proficieny bonus with. I'd also say that by that logic, Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades don't stack, and it's a "pick either but not both" situation.

#33

SilentSin

Jul 08, 2015 0:23:29

I agree with Yunru. This isn't something you can have both ways.

If adding half prof counts as adding prof:

Then Jack of All Trades and Remarkable Athlete both count as adding prof. According to the prof rules, this means they don't stack. And since they count as adding prof, that means they do trigger Reliable Talent.

Else Jack of All Trades and Remarkable Athlete do not count as adding prof. This means the prof rules don't stop them from stacking. And since they don't count as adding prof, that means they do not trigger Reliable Talent.

As with much of 5e, the rules are ambiguous as to which case should be applied.

Personally, I think the intent of the prof rules is something along the lines of "you can only add your proficiency bonus (or any multiple thereof) once to any given roll", meaning I'd go with the first case. Jack and Remarkable don't stack, but they do trigger Reliable Talent.

#34

Danny_Montanny

Jul 08, 2015 4:53:00

So Reliable Talent doesn't work with Expertise because you're not adding your proficiency bonus any longer, you're adding a different bonus? Doesn't really fit, does it? A bonus is a bonus, the number is irrelevant.

The proficiency bonus represents training, anything that adds the bonus (or a derivative thereof) means you have that training, no matter if it's some training, the normal amount, or exceptional training.

#35

mrpopstar

Jul 08, 2015 5:00:30

Tweeted...

@JeremyECrawford How do Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent interact?

#36

sim-h

Jul 08, 2015 5:03:30

Jack of All Trades and Reliable Talent are diametric opposites in terms of semantics ('you're quite good at everything' vs 'you're very good at certain specific things').

I would always rule they do not stack.

#37

mrpopstar

Jul 08, 2015 5:17:35

Danny_Montanny wrote:

(Reply to #34)

SilentSin

Danny_Montanny wrote:

#39

mrpopstar

Jul 08, 2015 5:27:10

SilentSin wrote:

(Reply to #39)

SilentSin

mrpopstar wrote:

#41

Danny_Montanny

Jul 08, 2015 7:32:49

There is no distinction between proficiency and proficiency bonus. If you get the bonus (or a derivative thereof), then you're proficient. If something says you're proficient, then you get the bonus (or a derivative thereof). So there is no "chosen proficiency". There's just proficiency and the bonus (or a derivitave thereof) it grants.

"Two of X" isn't the same thing as "X", though no one has a problem with Reliable Talent and Expertise mixing. If Reliable Talent only works with "X" then Expertise would be out the window.

So, proficiency means that you have the training, focus, and talent to do a particular thing. Jack of All Trades simply means that you have training, focus, and talent with a whole variety of things. Just because I don't have as much training, focus, and talent as the next guy in a particular thing, doesn't mean I don't have any training, focus, or talent in said thing. Therefore I am proficient, even if only a little bit, in said thing. If I'm proficient, and have trained hard enough (enough Rogue levels), I can rely on that training, focus, and talent to pull me through when my success is uncertain.

#42

sim-h

Jul 08, 2015 7:49:56

Danny_Montanny wrote:

(Reply to #42)

Yunru

sim-h wrote:

#44

jaelis

Jul 08, 2015 8:32:29

Danny_Montanny wrote:

#45

sim-h

Jul 08, 2015 8:46:07

Yunru wrote:

#46

Yunru

Jul 08, 2015 8:49:30

So what your saying is... if my proficiency bonus is 2... and my dex bonus is 2... then I have proficiency with all dex based skills? :D

After all I'm adding 2 to them.

#47

shintashi

Jul 08, 2015 9:33:33

I'm inclined to believe if the source for the bonus is the same, then you use the highest interpretation of that bonus. I might be inclined to let two halves equal a whole. For example, if you had two abilities, one giving you +1/2 your proficiency bonus, and the other giving you +1/2 your proficiency bonus, I would let that stand as "+your proficiency bonus". However, I would not condone a x1.5 your proficiency bonus.

also, if the ability is titled the same thing, even if the mechanics are different, it is easy to rule they don't stack.

#48

Yunru

Jul 08, 2015 11:51:37

Easy but not correct, RAW.