Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zoroaster99 Aug 25, 2014 5:03:12	If I play a Fighter or other non-spellcasting class, and use the Magic Initiate feat to pick up a cantrip like Fire Bolt, Acid Splash, Shocking Grasp or Eldritch Bolt, does the damage done by the cantrip go up when I get to fifth level, etc.?  The text in the cantrips just says level, not class level, and if it doesn't go up that would seem to make Magic Initiate fairly useless at high levels for damage cantrips, so my guess is character level, but was wondering if it is spelled out one way or the other somewhere in the rules which I've missed?   What if I play a spellcaster? Say I play a Warlock and use Magic Initiate to pick up a couple of Sorcerer or Bard cantrips, for example.  Does the damage for these other cantrips go up at level 5 just as with my Warlock cantrips?
#2 mellored Aug 25, 2014 5:10:21	Character level.   Though, they are generally weaker then other option.
#3 zoroaster99 Aug 25, 2014 5:17:29	Thanks for the response.  That is what I think as well.   Have you seen a specific reference in the rules to support this?  All I have seen to go by right now is that in the text of the cantrips it just says "when you reach 5th level, this spell's damage increases to ..." and that I couldn't find a reference that specifies that has to be fifth level in the class that granted you the cantrip.
(Reply to #3) onceMoreIntoBreech	zoroaster99 wrote:
(Reply to #4) zoroaster99	onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
#6 KarlB Aug 25, 2014 18:41:40	Hmmm, odd ... I could swear I saw that mentioned in the book, but I can't find it anymore. Anyone have a page reference by any chance?
#7 zoroaster99 Aug 26, 2014 4:34:44	I have not found a page reference, other than the wording on the cantrip spells just mentions "when you reach 5th level".  It would be nice to have WOTC clarify this formally, but that is how I'll be playing it since otherwise cantrips become useless for multiclass characters or magic initiate feat characters in high level.
#8 2Chlorobutanal Aug 26, 2014 4:43:45	Developers have clarified this (cantrips scale off character level, not class level) through tweets and other unofficial channels a few times in the past two months.   A way to extrapolate this from the rules is:   Class features based on class level appear under a specific class heading.  For example, "Ability Score Improvement" is only ever listed as a feature under a specific class and thus its benefit is derived only from the referenced class's levels.   Spells do not belong to any one class- even if they appear on a class's spell list, they are not "a part" of that class.  The ability to prepare, learn, or cast that spell may be a "Wizard" feature or a "Druid" feature, but the conjure elemental spell is not a Wizard spell or a Druid spell.  Therefore, any levels referenced in a spell's description would only apply to a specific class if explicitly called out (your spellcasting class level, your Bard level, etc.).
#9 CorwynnMaelstrom Aug 26, 2014 4:45:32	Almost invariably "class level" is used when "class level" is intended. So pretty much every time yiou see "level" alone it means character level.
(Reply to #9) 2Chlorobutanal	CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
#11 Psikerlord Aug 26, 2014 5:01:12	what about if you multiclass and get a cantrip that way. Say you go fighter 4, warlock 1, and pick up eldritch blast as a cantrip. Are you casting it as a level 1 warlock, or a level 5 character? I suppose its still as a level 5 character. Would have been nice to have that clear under the cantrip paragraph...
(Reply to #11) 2Chlorobutanal	Psikerlord wrote:
#13 Kalani Aug 26, 2014 8:13:52	All spells function off character level. Spells and especially cantrips can be gained from a variety of sources, including races and feats. The Dev's made it explicitly clear they did not want to gimp multiclass spellcasters this edition. This was achieved by having all level-based spells and cantrips scale with character level, and other spells scale based on spell slot.   The argument made regarding invocations however, is less clear - as while it uses the same language, there is only one method of gaining invocations - levels in the warlock class. Invocations are also contained within the description of the Warlock class, instead of being contained in the spellcasting section of the rules (as they were in 3.5). As I stated in another thread, most class features which use the "level" language, are also found on the classes level advancement table, making it perfectly obvious that it requires X levels in the class to obtain that feature.   Only three class features to date have variables which are chosen from a list; these being maneuvers (battle master), Invocations (Warlock), and Four Winds disciplines (four winds monk). No manuever currently has a level-requirement, making it invalid for this discussion, leaving only Invocations and FW disciplines for comparison.   The wording of all level-dependent FW disciplines is identical to the wording of level-dependent Invocations. The differences arise in the preamble discussing Disciplines and Invocations specifically, with FW disciplines being very specific in its wording, stating that any discipline with a level-requirement requires X levels in the monk class. The wording of the Invocation entry however, simply states you must meet the requirements...... hense the confusion.   Logic would dictate that the Invocation entry is simply bad wording, or was not updated with more specific language during the editing and revision process (not all classes are made at the same time. The Four Winds monk for example, is most likely a late entry to the rules, whereas the Warlock class has been present in the game since at least August 2013). Logic would also dictate that level-dependant invocations function using the same rules as level-dependant monk disciplines.   Logic aside, both interpretations are valid based on the wording, hense the debate.