Is Pun Pun back? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 McFlizzle Aug 12, 2014 22:18:53	The spell true polymorph lets you assume the form and take on the satistics of a creature equal to your CR or lower. I'm curious if, at level 20, you take the form of an adult blue dragon (CR 16). Thus, your total CR would then be 36. From there, take another form of a CR as high as is released at the time and so on. So, you're effectively constantly CR'd at the highest thing out there +20. The only things that don't make this absolute RAW is that true polymorph 1) doesn't say that your CR changes when you use it and 2) actually only becomes permanent which makes it subject to dispel magic. What do you think? Here are the relevant portions of the spell text: True Polymorph Casting Time: 1 action Range: 30 feet Components: V,S,M (a drop of mercury, a dollop of gum arabic, and a wisp of smoke) Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You tranform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be niether worn nor carried by another creature). The tranformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the tranformation becomes permanent. Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be of any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game statistics, including mental ability socres, are repelaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality. The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 hit points, it isn't knkocked unconscious. The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions. The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.
#2 silentdante Aug 12, 2014 23:25:29	you could cast it once and become the highest CR rated creature at that time, and become permanently like that, but it also says you cannot speak or cast spells if the new form is not capable, so does a dragon have true polymorph as a spell it can cast? i havent looked, but if it doesn't, your stuck as a dago forever it would seem. it says permanent.
#3 McFlizzle Aug 12, 2014 23:50:32	No where does the spell say the target loses class abilities, though. Plus, clasically dragons have always been able to work wands, gesture sufficiently for somatic components, and so on. Permanent isn't necessarily permanent either, like I said. It can be dispelled.
#4 Undrhil Aug 12, 2014 23:55:12	The target's game statistics (including mental ability scores) are replaced by statistics of the new form. That makes it sound like you would lose any class and racial abilities, in favor of any class or racial abilities of the new form. If it doesn't have any, then now neither do you. It even says 'except alignment and personality.' So there is precedent that the spell is pretty thorough in what gets replaced: everything except alignment and personality. You can be the first Lawful Good Mind Flayer with a cheerful disposition!
#5 silentdante Aug 13, 2014 0:06:08	McFlizzle wrote:
#6 McFlizzle Aug 13, 2014 0:08:27	It's subject to dispel because the duration effectively is permanent. Which, in the spellcasting chapter only instaneous effects aren't subject to being dispelled. Note the difference between true polymorph and reincarnate. @Undhril, that's hilarious. I see your point, though. That's likely correct, I think. But, over the course of play, if there is a creature that comes out with substantial spellcasting ability that has high stats all around then it could easily be an upgrade compared to a PC race caster.
#7 silentdante Aug 13, 2014 0:24:36	in spell duration it says the spell will specify that their effects last until the spell is dispelled or destroyed, so following your rules, it could not be dispelled because it doesnt say so, it is perminent, the spell tells you so. now in the case of destroyed, yes it does have rules that if you are reduced to 0 HP you revert to your origional form and take the excess damage. in this case that would be destroying the spell. otherwise it's not a spell anymore as far as dispelling is concerned otherwise it would make mention as per the duration rules. while it's a great idea, you would be hard pressed to travel, go in dungeons (well if you were huge in size anyway), and roleplay as an evil monster, no matter if it's charisma is high enough to try and say "no wait guys, i am not actually evil" so i would have no problem with you becoming a red dragon, just dont be angry if the DM has people attack you all the time and never deal with you since you resemble an evil creature. still a neat idea, just not as practicle i dont think, also you would already be 15-20th level and pretty powerful as the spellcaster anyway.
#8 McFlizzle Aug 13, 2014 0:35:08	I get what you're saying, silentdante. The thing with pun pun, though, was that you used polymorphs to cyclicly grant yourself abilities. Because of how true polymorph works, Wizards will need to be very careful if they want to maintain game balance. One creature with any kind of high level casting or it itself has polymorph like effects could lead to sillyness quickly. But, becoming a dragon has many advantages to the level 20 caster. One of them is a boatload of HP and another is legendary actions. Get yourself a lair and you get more power. At that point it might not be too difficult to get a level 17 wizard under your thumb to further polymorph you. Plus, at that point you likely have clones so even if you die in your dragon form you can still be far from dead.
#9 jaelis Aug 13, 2014 5:51:50	There's no actual reason to think your CR would add like the OP suggests, is there? So even if you polymorph into a creature that has the polymorph spell, it still would not let you increase your level/CR. A level 20 wizard will never get to a form with a CR above 20. It seems powerful, but it's no pun pun.
#10 Mephi1234 Aug 13, 2014 6:29:04	The loss of magic items hurt as well. Being unable to use any equipment is harsh, though understandable. Otherwise, you could shapeshift your entire party into one giant group of high powered beings that break the game. Personally, I think the scariest part of the spell is the fact you can create a high powered army out of pebbles one day at a time. Or go into town, raise a following / cult. Transform people into immortal celestials, fiends, fey, sphinxes, whatever else is long lived. They will keep their alignment and personality, so if they were loyal, they remain loyal. And now, they're high powered, immortal loyal followers who will likely use their new found powers to directly aid you. You might not be personally powerful, but, functionally? What's scary is if you can find a critter that can use the Wish spell. Or a Legendary creature of some kind. Who's afraid of the big bad evil empire when you can grow an empire of super powers on your own steam?
#11 mellored Aug 13, 2014 6:51:14	Mephi1234 wrote:
#12 jaelis Aug 13, 2014 7:11:23	Mephi1234 wrote:
#13 mellored Aug 13, 2014 7:24:52	Step 1: Get loyal cultist Step 2: Find some corpses Step 3: Raise dead Step 4: Cultist kill your undead, gaining experience. Repeat stepts 3 and 4 until you have high level cultists. Step 5: High level cultist raise undead for other cultists speeding up the proccess. Step 6: Polymorph your army of high level cultists.
#14 JohnnyBlaise Aug 13, 2014 7:37:43	We dont know how scrolls, wands or the like will work yet, but I assume the way to abuse this will be to cast it before you are the appropriate level to have it, take on an alternate form, then level adding to your attritibute scores every 4 levels. Also, it seems like with enough lead-time, a caster could effectively turn his entire party into the most broken species for each of thier builds (whatever that might be when the MM comes out).
#15 JohnnyBlaise Aug 13, 2014 7:41:17	I also have no idea what the "level" of a familiar or animal companion is yet, but that seem ripe to abuse. Also, did you guys think about the sort of havoc a transmuter can cause to the economy. step one, break into bank. step two, melt down the gold bars in said bank to a solid "object". Convert that object into a block of goat cheese. Permanently. Joker much?
#16 Mephi1234 Aug 13, 2014 7:54:15	I suppose the question comes down to this - how much of the spell changes you? Can you cast a spell you know in another form? Do you retain feats? You can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of your equipment.... that you were wearing when targeted? So, can you still use the stuff you weren't wearing when you cast the spell? From a strict reading, I would guess that you basically get handed a new character sheet (effectively). Which seems strange to me - all that knowledge you gained, gone in a heartbeat?
#17 Undrhil Aug 13, 2014 7:58:33	Or get rich quick: Make a giant block of goat cheese and convert it into a block of gold. Sell it to the town. Once you leave town, stop concentrating on the block of gold, so it becomes goat cheese again in their locked vault. The smell will eventually tip them off, but you will be long gone.
#18 ScottGreene Aug 13, 2014 9:45:42	Undrhil wrote:
#19 jaelis Aug 13, 2014 12:09:28	Mephi1234 wrote:
#20 jaelis Aug 13, 2014 12:04:43	mellored wrote:
#21 silentdante Aug 13, 2014 13:10:01	Mephi1234 wrote:
#22 Mephi1234 Aug 13, 2014 15:14:27	silentdante wrote:
#23 silentdante Aug 13, 2014 16:00:06	Mephi1234 wrote:
#24 Kennethray Aug 13, 2014 17:32:47	Since Polymorph is a concentration spell, wouldnt casting it agana break your first spell and cause you to revert to your normal form? K-Ray (Edit) NM, I see the permanant thing and guess you would try after that takes effect.
#25 Dane_McArdy Aug 13, 2014 17:54:38	McFlizzle wrote:
#26 Mephi1234 Aug 13, 2014 18:01:56	silentdante wrote:
#27 McFlizzle Aug 13, 2014 18:39:40	Dane_McArdy wrote:
#28 McFlizzle Aug 13, 2014 18:44:10	Mephi1234 wrote:
#29 lawrencehoy Aug 13, 2014 23:40:19	McFlizzle wrote:
#30 McFlizzle Aug 14, 2014 0:26:14	lawrencehoy wrote:
#31 lawrencehoy Aug 14, 2014 2:45:13	McFlizzle wrote:
#32 mellored Aug 14, 2014 5:15:54	I'm thinking the point where it says "you can't cast spells" pretty much covers multi-morphing. Unless there's a creature that can cast poly-morph. jaelis wrote:
#33 Dane_McArdy Aug 14, 2014 6:48:37	McFlizzle wrote:
#34 McFlizzle Aug 14, 2014 7:48:00	Dane_McArdy wrote:
#35 jaelis Aug 14, 2014 8:02:23	mellored wrote:
#36 Goober4473 Aug 14, 2014 10:47:01	McFlizzle wrote:
#37 Dane_McArdy Aug 14, 2014 13:25:22	McFlizzle wrote:
#38 ORC_Cricket Aug 14, 2014 21:23:24	We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others. Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.
#39 McFlizzle Aug 20, 2014 17:09:49	So, a soft confirmation that dragons can polymorph. http://imgur.com/Lu7lm50 Once the MM comes out, I expect things to get crazy with TFs current implementation.
#40 Yunru Aug 20, 2014 17:48:19	There's a vital second part missing so far though, a key part as well. A creature that can grant (permenant) abilities to others.
#41 McFlizzle Aug 20, 2014 17:54:05	Yes. That will require the MM and DMG release to see if anything does that, though.
#42 Brom_Blackforge Aug 22, 2014 7:42:27	I haven't studied the way spells are described, but is it even necessarily clear that you can cast this on yourself? It says "one creature or nonmagical object." It refers separately to "you" (the caster) and "the target." This whole problem is avoided if you can't cast it on yourself. So, fine, what if you cast it on the party's 20th level fighter? Well, first, does "creature" apply to PCs? Let's assume so. The next quesiton is whether the fighter would gain all the abilities of his new form and still maintain his class levels, effectively boosing his CR. The whole goal of the spell seems to be that no increase in power occurs. That's why the new form has to have the same CR or lower as the old form, and why all game statistics are replaced. The target is transformed, it becomes the new thing. It's not Lars the Fighter in dragon form, it's Lars the Dragon. That's how I read it, anyway. Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be of any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game statistics, including mental ability socres, are repelaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
#43 Yunru Aug 22, 2014 7:50:34	Statistics doesn't include classes and levels. Otherwise a Druid (who's wild shape uses exactly the same terminology) would lose all there levels whenever they Wild Shape'd. EDIT: To quote the relevent part: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast[...]"
#44 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 8:14:39	Yunru wrote:
#45 Thoughts_My_Aim Aug 22, 2014 8:23:28	lawrencehoy wrote:
(Reply to #40) Pauper	Yunru wrote:
#47 DocSun Aug 22, 2014 13:53:45	McFlizzle wrote:
#48 Dane_McArdy Aug 27, 2014 5:09:31	I just re read the spell, true polymorph and interesting, it never once talks about being able to cast it on yourself. All the language is about morphing a creature into another creature, an object into a creature, or a creature into an object. They've been clearer this time around about if a spell can be cast on yourself, and I think it's pretty clear, you can't cast this on yourself. So it's all moot. No pun pun.
#49 Yunru Aug 27, 2014 5:23:32	But you could turn your friend into Pun-Pun. Who then Pun-Puns you into being Pun-Pun. Fun-Fun.
#50 Yunru Aug 27, 2014 5:23:33	But you could turn your friend into Pun-Pun. Who then Pun-Puns you into being Pun-Pun. Fun-Fun.
(Reply to #50) Dane_McArdy	Yunru wrote:
#52 Yunru Aug 27, 2014 5:34:16	... You do know the basic concept of Pun-Pun right? The entire thing revolves around getting an ability to grant abilities.
#53 FallingIcicle Aug 27, 2014 5:39:36	Dane_McArdy wrote:
(Reply to #53) Dane_McArdy	FallingIcicle wrote:
#55 Dane_McArdy Aug 27, 2014 6:03:28	Yunru wrote:
#56 Plaguescarred1 Aug 27, 2014 6:25:59	Dane_McArdy wrote:
#57 Dane_McArdy Aug 27, 2014 6:23:15	Plaguescarred wrote:
#58 Plaguescarred1 Aug 27, 2014 6:36:47	Dane_McArdy wrote:
#59 McFlizzle Aug 27, 2014 6:34:51	It's about polymorphing yourself (or a friend) into something with that ability who can then use their new abilities to give you abilities and it's a giant back and forth until you're infinitely capable. For example, dragons can polymorph themselves into humans (humanoids, too, mabye??). We'll have to wait and see until the MM comes out to see exactly how that ability works, but, for now, it's theoretically possible, as in scientific theory and not 'fish makes a great cake ingredient' theory.
(Reply to #58) Dane_McArdy	Plaguescarred wrote:
#61 Yunru Aug 27, 2014 6:38:28	Dane_McArdy wrote:
(Reply to #60) 2Chlorobutanal	Dane_McArdy wrote:
#63 Noctaem Aug 27, 2014 6:49:21	You have the rule for targeting right there, thanks to Plaguescarred :p You can of course target yourself with TP. To prevent it they could have specifically called out that you can't which would be specific vs general. They didn't so you can, just like every other spell with the same language. TP does not have unique language. Right now, as others have stated, this discussion is a non-starter. We're missing the key element that made Pun-Pun possible. Considering how popular this thing was, I seriously doubt that WOTC will allow it to appear in 5e in its original form. Although, perhaps a lesser version is possible considering how TP seems to function. Once the MM comes out we should have a better idea if it'll be possible.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

McFlizzle

Aug 12, 2014 22:18:53

The spell true polymorph lets you assume the form and take on the satistics of a creature equal to your CR or lower. I'm curious if, at level 20, you take the form of an adult blue dragon (CR 16). Thus, your total CR would then be 36. From there, take another form of a CR as high as is released at the time and so on. So, you're effectively constantly CR'd at the highest thing out there +20.

The only things that don't make this absolute RAW is that true polymorph 1) doesn't say that your CR changes when you use it and 2) actually only becomes permanent which makes it subject to dispel magic.

What do you think?

Here are the relevant portions of the spell text:

True Polymorph

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 30 feet

Components: V,S,M (a drop of mercury, a dollop of gum arabic, and a wisp of smoke)

Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You tranform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be niether worn nor carried by another creature). The tranformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the tranformation becomes permanent.

Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be of any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game statistics, including mental ability socres, are repelaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.

The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 hit points, it isn't knkocked unconscious.

The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions.

The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.

silentdante

Aug 12, 2014 23:25:29

you could cast it once and become the highest CR rated creature at that time, and become permanently like that, but it also says you cannot speak or cast spells if the new form is not capable, so does a dragon have true polymorph as a spell it can cast? i havent looked, but if it doesn't, your stuck as a dago forever it would seem. it says permanent.

McFlizzle

Aug 12, 2014 23:50:32

No where does the spell say the target loses class abilities, though. Plus, clasically dragons have always been able to work wands, gesture sufficiently for somatic components, and so on. Permanent isn't necessarily permanent either, like I said. It can be dispelled.

Undrhil

Aug 12, 2014 23:55:12

The target's game statistics (including mental ability scores) are replaced by statistics of the new form.

That makes it sound like you would lose any class and racial abilities, in favor of any class or racial abilities of the new form. If it doesn't have any, then now neither do you.

It even says 'except alignment and personality.' So there is precedent that the spell is pretty thorough in what gets replaced: everything except alignment and personality. You can be the first Lawful Good Mind Flayer with a cheerful disposition!

silentdante

Aug 13, 2014 0:06:08

McFlizzle wrote:

McFlizzle

Aug 13, 2014 0:08:27

It's subject to dispel because the duration effectively is permanent. Which, in the spellcasting chapter only instaneous effects aren't subject to being dispelled. Note the difference between true polymorph and reincarnate.

@Undhril, that's hilarious. I see your point, though. That's likely correct, I think. But, over the course of play, if there is a creature that comes out with substantial spellcasting ability that has high stats all around then it could easily be an upgrade compared to a PC race caster.

silentdante

Aug 13, 2014 0:24:36

in spell duration it says the spell will specify that their effects last until the spell is dispelled or destroyed, so following your rules, it could not be dispelled because it doesnt say so, it is perminent, the spell tells you so.

now in the case of destroyed, yes it does have rules that if you are reduced to 0 HP you revert to your origional form and take the excess damage. in this case that would be destroying the spell. otherwise it's not a spell anymore as far as dispelling is concerned otherwise it would make mention as per the duration rules.

while it's a great idea, you would be hard pressed to travel, go in dungeons (well if you were huge in size anyway), and roleplay as an evil monster, no matter if it's charisma is high enough to try and say "no wait guys, i am not actually evil"

so i would have no problem with you becoming a red dragon, just dont be angry if the DM has people attack you all the time and never deal with you since you resemble an evil creature.

still a neat idea, just not as practicle i dont think, also you would already be 15-20th level and pretty powerful as the spellcaster anyway.

McFlizzle

Aug 13, 2014 0:35:08

I get what you're saying, silentdante. The thing with pun pun, though, was that you used polymorphs to cyclicly grant yourself abilities. Because of how true polymorph works, Wizards will need to be very careful if they want to maintain game balance. One creature with any kind of high level casting or it itself has polymorph like effects could lead to sillyness quickly.

But, becoming a dragon has many advantages to the level 20 caster. One of them is a boatload of HP and another is legendary actions. Get yourself a lair and you get more power. At that point it might not be too difficult to get a level 17 wizard under your thumb to further polymorph you. Plus, at that point you likely have clones so even if you die in your dragon form you can still be far from dead.

jaelis

Aug 13, 2014 5:51:50

There's no actual reason to think your CR would add like the OP suggests, is there? So even if you polymorph into a creature that has the polymorph spell, it still would not let you increase your level/CR. A level 20 wizard will never get to a form with a CR above 20. It seems powerful, but it's no pun pun.

#10

Mephi1234

Aug 13, 2014 6:29:04

The loss of magic items hurt as well. Being unable to use any equipment is harsh, though understandable. Otherwise, you could shapeshift your entire party into one giant group of high powered beings that break the game.

Personally, I think the scariest part of the spell is the fact you can create a high powered army out of pebbles one day at a time. Or go into town, raise a following / cult. Transform people into immortal celestials, fiends, fey, sphinxes, whatever else is long lived. They will keep their alignment and personality, so if they were loyal, they remain loyal. And now, they're high powered, immortal loyal followers who will likely use their new found powers to directly aid you. You might not be personally powerful, but, functionally?

What's scary is if you can find a critter that can use the Wish spell. Or a Legendary creature of some kind. Who's afraid of the big bad evil empire when you can grow an empire of super powers on your own steam?

#11

mellored

Aug 13, 2014 6:51:14

Mephi1234 wrote:

#12

jaelis

Aug 13, 2014 7:11:23

Mephi1234 wrote:

#13

mellored

Aug 13, 2014 7:24:52

Step 1: Get loyal cultist

Step 2: Find some corpses

Step 3: Raise dead

Step 4: Cultist kill your undead, gaining experience.

Repeat stepts 3 and 4 until you have high level cultists.

Step 5: High level cultist raise undead for other cultists speeding up the proccess.

Step 6: Polymorph your army of high level cultists.

#14

JohnnyBlaise

Aug 13, 2014 7:37:43

We dont know how scrolls, wands or the like will work yet, but I assume the way to abuse this will be to cast it before you are the appropriate level to have it, take on an alternate form, then level adding to your attritibute scores every 4 levels. Also, it seems like with enough lead-time, a caster could effectively turn his entire party into the most broken species for each of thier builds (whatever that might be when the MM comes out).

#15

JohnnyBlaise

Aug 13, 2014 7:41:17

I also have no idea what the "level" of a familiar or animal companion is yet, but that seem ripe to abuse.

Also, did you guys think about the sort of havoc a transmuter can cause to the economy. step one, break into bank. step two, melt down the gold bars in said bank to a solid "object". Convert that object into a block of goat cheese. Permanently. Joker much?

#16

Mephi1234

Aug 13, 2014 7:54:15

I suppose the question comes down to this - how much of the spell changes you? Can you cast a spell you know in another form? Do you retain feats? You can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit

from any of your equipment.... that you were wearing when targeted? So, can you still use the stuff you weren't wearing when you cast the spell?

From a strict reading, I would guess that you basically get handed a new character sheet (effectively). Which seems strange to me - all that knowledge you gained, gone in a heartbeat?

#17

Undrhil

Aug 13, 2014 7:58:33

Or get rich quick: Make a giant block of goat cheese and convert it into a block of gold. Sell it to the town. Once you leave town, stop concentrating on the block of gold, so it becomes goat cheese again *in their locked vault*. The smell will eventually tip them off, but you will be long gone.

#18

ScottGreene

Aug 13, 2014 9:45:42

Undrhil wrote:

#19

jaelis

Aug 13, 2014 12:09:28

Mephi1234 wrote:

#20

jaelis

Aug 13, 2014 12:04:43

mellored wrote:

#21

silentdante

Aug 13, 2014 13:10:01

Mephi1234 wrote:

#22

Mephi1234

Aug 13, 2014 15:14:27

silentdante wrote:

#23

silentdante

Aug 13, 2014 16:00:06

Mephi1234 wrote:

#24

Kennethray

Aug 13, 2014 17:32:47

Since Polymorph is a concentration spell, wouldnt casting it agana break your first spell and cause you to revert to your normal form?

K-Ray

(Edit) NM, I see the permanant thing and guess you would try after that takes effect.

#25

Dane_McArdy

Aug 13, 2014 17:54:38

McFlizzle wrote:

#26

Mephi1234

Aug 13, 2014 18:01:56

silentdante wrote:

#27

McFlizzle

Aug 13, 2014 18:39:40

Dane_McArdy wrote:

#28

McFlizzle

Aug 13, 2014 18:44:10

Mephi1234 wrote:

#29

lawrencehoy

Aug 13, 2014 23:40:19

McFlizzle wrote:

#30

McFlizzle

Aug 14, 2014 0:26:14

lawrencehoy wrote:

#31

lawrencehoy

Aug 14, 2014 2:45:13

McFlizzle wrote:

#32

mellored

Aug 14, 2014 5:15:54

I'm thinking the point where it says "you can't cast spells" pretty much covers multi-morphing.

Unless there's a creature that can cast poly-morph.

jaelis wrote:

#33

Dane_McArdy

Aug 14, 2014 6:48:37

McFlizzle wrote:

#34

McFlizzle

Aug 14, 2014 7:48:00

Dane_McArdy wrote:

#35

jaelis

Aug 14, 2014 8:02:23

mellored wrote:

#36

Goober4473

Aug 14, 2014 10:47:01

McFlizzle wrote:

#37

Dane_McArdy

Aug 14, 2014 13:25:22

McFlizzle wrote:

#38

ORC_Cricket

Aug 14, 2014 21:23:24

We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct

Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.

Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.

#39

McFlizzle

Aug 20, 2014 17:09:49

So, a soft confirmation that dragons can polymorph. http://imgur.com/Lu7lm50

Once the MM comes out, I expect things to get crazy with TFs current implementation.

#40

Yunru

Aug 20, 2014 17:48:19

There's a vital second part missing so far though, a key part as well. A creature that can grant (permenant) abilities to others.

#41

McFlizzle

Aug 20, 2014 17:54:05

Yes. That will require the MM and DMG release to see if anything does that, though.

#42

Brom_Blackforge

Aug 22, 2014 7:42:27

I haven't studied the way spells are described, but is it even necessarily clear that you can cast this on yourself? It says "one creature or nonmagical object." It refers separately to "you" (the caster) and "the target." This whole problem is avoided if you can't cast it on yourself.

So, fine, what if you cast it on the party's 20th level fighter? Well, first, does "creature" apply to PCs? Let's assume so. The next quesiton is whether the fighter would gain all the abilities of his new form and still maintain his class levels, effectively boosing his CR. The whole goal of the spell seems to be that no increase in power occurs. That's why the new form has to have the same CR or lower as the old form, and why all game statistics are replaced. The target is transformed, it becomes the new thing. It's not Lars the Fighter in dragon form, it's Lars the Dragon. That's how I read it, anyway.

Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be of any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game statistics, including mental ability socres, are repelaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.

#43

Yunru

Aug 22, 2014 7:50:34

Statistics doesn't include classes and levels. Otherwise a Druid (who's wild shape uses exactly the same terminology) would lose all there levels whenever they Wild Shape'd.

EDIT: To quote the relevent part: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast[...]"

#44

Kalani

Aug 22, 2014 8:14:39

Yunru wrote:

#45

Thoughts_My_Aim

Aug 22, 2014 8:23:28

lawrencehoy wrote:

(Reply to #40)

Pauper

Yunru wrote:

#47

DocSun

Aug 22, 2014 13:53:45

McFlizzle wrote:

#48

Dane_McArdy

Aug 27, 2014 5:09:31

I just re read the spell, true polymorph and interesting, it never once talks about being able to cast it on yourself.

All the language is about morphing a creature into another creature, an object into a creature, or a creature into an object.

They've been clearer this time around about if a spell can be cast on yourself, and I think it's pretty clear, you can't cast this on yourself.

So it's all moot. No pun pun.

#49

Yunru

Aug 27, 2014 5:23:32

But you could turn your friend into Pun-Pun. Who then Pun-Puns you into being Pun-Pun. Fun-Fun.

#50

Yunru

Aug 27, 2014 5:23:33

But you could turn your friend into Pun-Pun. Who then Pun-Puns you into being Pun-Pun. Fun-Fun.

(Reply to #50)

Dane_McArdy

Yunru wrote:

#52

Yunru

Aug 27, 2014 5:34:16

... You do know the basic concept of Pun-Pun right? The entire thing revolves around getting an ability to grant abilities.

#53

FallingIcicle

Aug 27, 2014 5:39:36

Dane_McArdy wrote:

(Reply to #53)

Dane_McArdy

FallingIcicle wrote:

#55

Dane_McArdy

Aug 27, 2014 6:03:28

Yunru wrote:

#56

Plaguescarred1

Aug 27, 2014 6:25:59

Dane_McArdy wrote:

#57

Dane_McArdy

Aug 27, 2014 6:23:15

Plaguescarred wrote:

#58

Plaguescarred1

Aug 27, 2014 6:36:47

Dane_McArdy wrote:

#59

McFlizzle

Aug 27, 2014 6:34:51

It's about polymorphing yourself (or a friend) into something with that ability who can then use their new abilities to give you abilities and it's a giant back and forth until you're infinitely capable. For example, dragons can polymorph themselves into humans (humanoids, too, mabye??). We'll have to wait and see until the MM comes out to see exactly how that ability works, but, for now, it's theoretically possible, as in scientific theory and not 'fish makes a great cake ingredient' theory.

(Reply to #58)

Dane_McArdy

Plaguescarred wrote:

#61

Yunru

Aug 27, 2014 6:38:28

Dane_McArdy wrote:

(Reply to #60)

2Chlorobutanal

Dane_McArdy wrote:

#63

Noctaem

Aug 27, 2014 6:49:21

You have the rule for targeting right there, thanks to Plaguescarred :p You can of course target yourself with TP. To prevent it they could have specifically called out that you can't which would be specific vs general. They didn't so you can, just like every other spell with the same language. TP does not have unique language.

Right now, as others have stated, this discussion is a non-starter. We're missing the key element that made Pun-Pun possible. Considering how popular this thing was, I seriously doubt that WOTC will allow it to appear in 5e in its original form. Although, perhaps a lesser version is possible considering how TP seems to function. Once the MM comes out we should have a better idea if it'll be possible.