Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 brettlangbdl Mar 05, 2015 21:28:44	The 3rd-level ranger spell lightning arrow has a duration of Concentration 1 minute and states; the next time you make a weapon attack during the spell's duration the ammunition transforms into lightning for 4d8 damage. My uncertainly, and especially that of my players is how often the arrows transform to lightning.. once during the 1 minute, once per round, every attack?   Help? lol
#2 mellored Mar 05, 2015 21:32:54	just once. usually you cast it then immidatly attack with it. though if your going to ambush, you can cast it, then next turn, shoot it, cast a second one, and shoot it, for a nice nova.
#3 Byakugan01 Mar 05, 2015 23:24:55	Its not a very good spell....only works once.
#4 Byakugan01 Mar 05, 2015 23:27:24	Its not a very good spell....only works once.
#5 mellored Mar 06, 2015 5:45:53	Byakugan01 wrote:
#6 Byakugan01 Mar 06, 2015 13:01:43	Fireball starts at 8d6 and requires no attack roll.  It is also available at 5th level.   It is the standard to which 3rd level damage spells should be compared.      It is a very bad spell compared to fireball.
#7 mellored Mar 06, 2015 13:26:14	Byakugan01 wrote:
#8 Mephi1234 Mar 06, 2015 19:02:08	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #8) Coredump00	Mephi1234 wrote:
#10 Byakugan01 Mar 06, 2015 23:31:17	I might be reading the spell different than you.       As i read it, the spell does 4d8 period, and does not get ability modifiers, since it says instead of normal damage.    Further more, the secondary damage does not apply to your target, and allows a fairly low dc saving throw.    Also, its concentration which means it costs you your hunters mark buff. Which essentially costs you 2d6 damage right off the bat when you could just have an 8 hr long hunters mark going all day on most every shot you make.    And you have to wait till 9th level to cast this spell...   and it compares poorly to hail of thorns which at 3rd level would add 3d10 damage to the regular damage of your attack.  With a smaller radius and still allowing a save and killing your hunters mark. (Read also a bad spell).    Longbow range might be helpful, but in my experience fights almost always start either when you open a door or you notice each other in the wilderness about 1 or 2 moves away from eah other.
#11 mellored Mar 07, 2015 10:31:04	it's iffy about the mod, but i don't see how the target is not within 10' of the target.
(Reply to #11) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
#13 mellored Mar 07, 2015 12:17:33	well, it should be 4d8+2d8 from a balace point of view. i'll leave the semanics up to someone else.
#14 jaelis Mar 07, 2015 20:39:01	I agree, 4d8+2d8 makes it a reasonable spell, otherwise it is not so good. I'd have read it the other way on my own, but I think it's ambiguous really.
#15 mrpopstar Mar 08, 2015 12:21:05	The spell has two effects. The first is applied to the target (4d8 lightning damage), the second is applied to each creature within 10 feet of the target (2d8 lightning damage).
(Reply to #15) Coredump00	mrpopstar wrote:
#17 mrpopstar Mar 08, 2015 13:21:21	Coredump00 wrote:
#18 brettlangbdl Mar 09, 2015 21:40:07	Well.. i think i agree with many of the above, in that it is a "sucky" spell.. one lightning arrow for a concentraion based spell seems pretty damn sad. Even witch bolt is better than that, and its only 1st level. Thanks for the clarification tho.
#19 Lord_Kadarian Mar 09, 2015 23:26:45	Some quick thoughts  1.  lets start with the assumption that we have just obtained 9th level and have 2 3rd level spells per day.  2. let say I have a 20 dex at this point in the game, and I might have the sharpshooter feat. 3. Let us also say that I have chosen the archery fighting style, and have chosen to not take an animal companion. 4. I have chosen the colossus slayer   to hit bonus is thusly a +11 to hit, with two attacks. Also if my target is injured it will take an extra d8 of damage.  I get to ignore all but total cover. and potentially I can drop my attack to +6 inexchange for a +10 to damage. Finally I can shoot up to 600ft without penalty.    Now then since Hunter's Mark lasts for 8hrs as a third level spell and I get two of them a day, and the adventuring day usually is not longer than 8hrs. We can agree that this will be the first choice but that I don't have to worry about casting it a second time, at least not for another 8hr version. So I have a spare 3rd level spell to make use of.    Now then I get +1d6 damage and an extra 1d8 once per round if they are injured.  So arrow damage of my longbow is 1d8+1d6+5(15) first shot, and if we are talking optimal situation the second shot will be hitting for 2d8+1d6+5(15)   If I use lightning arrow I use up a bonus action so most likely I am not setting up a new target for hunters mark this turn.  I still get to shoot twice, so lets not use the shot damage bonus this turn, opening attack lightning arrow.  +11 to hit 4d8+1d6 damage and all other enemies withing 10ft of the main target must make a save probably around DC 15 for half damage vs. 2d8.  If the target dies I can still shoot one of the other targets and I get an extra d8 damage on them since they already have been damaged.  If not dead then I can shoot them again with a normal arrow with my extra d8 of damage.  If allowed we can take the -5 penalty for a significant +10 to damage for the hit on the main target, and the surrounding targets.    I would say that switching my damage from 1d8+5 (9.5) to 4d8 (18) could be a worth while trade out for the expense of a bonus action. Also it switches to lightning damage which could bypass damage resistance which can be troublesome (of course we might have a magic weapon by this point) Although if the GM rules that the target takes the save damage as well that is another 2d8+1d6 to the target possible half damage (12.5) (or 6) If not then this spell may be best reserved when you can a group of baddies, perhaps a boss with some minions arround them.    As for comparison With the spell fireball (which dishes 8d6 fire damage as an AOE spell (28 fire, 14 fire on a save) range of 150ft. Save DC 17 Dex (9th level wizard, int of 20)  The range can hit at up to 4 times the range. which is nice. The average roll is 10.5 on a d20 if he can't get advantage for say sniping from an unseen location. which is higher than the base bonus of the dc of 8, so an average attack roll of 21.5. which is higher than most AC's in the game. So I would say that lightning arrow is far more damaging to a single target with light residual damage to surrounding targets, in short fireball is probably best for a group of equal strength opponents, while lightning arrow is going to be more effective for a strong target, surrounded by weak targets.
#20 Coredump00 Mar 09, 2015 23:46:11	Can't do hunter's mark and Lightning arrow.     But LA should not be compared to Fireball/Lightning bolt. Those two are meant to be ahead of the 'damage curve'.  And Ranger AOE spells will never be as good as Wizard AoE spells.   But compared to Conjure Barrage.... its comparable.
#21 Lord_Kadarian Mar 10, 2015 0:05:18	Oh fun thought by the way  at level 11 you can get volley attack, where you shoot everyone in a 10ft radius as an action, you can technically make one of these lightning arrow, which would mean you can hit one target for 4d8, and all other targets for 2d8 save, and then also have the effect of getting to hit them once normally throwing in your 1d8 bonus damage to one of them since they will already be injured from the lightning arrow.    That would be fun.    And yes you are correct they are both concentration spells so I could only have one of them active at a time, still it may be worth using lightning arrow, for boss fights when they have lots of mooks. this also depends on the party you are running with, if you do not have a lot of sources of AOE's in the party it may be worth having for crowd control.
#22 Byakugan01 Mar 10, 2015 0:13:01	Spike growth is compareable to fireball.  It just has a duration, is less flashy and does damage slower. But assuming you cast on a bbeg surrounded by 4 guards(your ideal lightning arrow situation) You are looking at between 6 and 12d4 to each target with no save. For a 2nd level spell.      Plant growth splits an encounter in half as good as comparable crowd control spells the wizard has.    Hunters mark at 3rd level lasts 8 hours. It can apply to nearly every attack you make.   so pretend 4 encounters each lasting 4 rounds, 2 shots per round equates to up to 32d6 damage per day no save.  Pretend you miss 1/4 of the time and you take a couple 'last hits' so you couldnt switch mark every time and u are still at roughly 20d6.    The reason LA does not compare with these other spells is simple.  They are good spells, and LA is bad.
#23 Coredump00 Mar 10, 2015 3:33:13	Spike growth is kinda sorta comparable... it does less damage, requires concentration, and can be ignored by just not moving.    Plant growth deals no damage, so it isn't at all comparable.   Hunters Mark is also not an AoE damage spell.... it does less damage and requires long term concentration     I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
#24 Byakugan01 Mar 10, 2015 4:18:31	Coredump00 wrote:
#25 mellored Mar 10, 2015 4:19:05	i'm not entirely convinced it's not 6d8+5 damage (half on a miss). but if anything, it should be compaired to 8d6 scorching ray, not fireball.
(Reply to #25) LordTwig	mellored wrote:
#27 Byakugan01 Mar 12, 2015 0:25:16	Dont you think you should count SS?  It is pretty much standard for an archer build that invested so much in being able to hit with archery?     A 9th level sorcerer casting 3rd level scorching ray can deal 8d6+20 avg 48 damage, split up to up to 4 targets.  So pretend you miss one and that is 6d6+15. Avg 36. damage.     It is pretty clear that the LA deals 4d8 instead of normal damage.  There is apparently disagreement whether or not the secondary damage deals damage to the primary target. The way i read and imagine it, the arrow turns into a bolt of lightning which strikes the primary then the static hits other creatures nearby.  I don't see the lightning striking...then swirling around or something so that it washes over the primary again.    It would still be a bad spell even if it simply did 4d8 in a 10 ft radius with a save.
#28 mellored Mar 12, 2015 5:29:27	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #27) LordTwig	Byakugan01 wrote:
#30 QwertyAzerty Mar 12, 2015 12:03:47	Byakugan01 wrote:
#31 mellored Mar 12, 2015 12:11:36	You can't have lighting arrow + hunter's quarry.  They are both concentration.   Fireball wins against hordes. Lighting wins against a single target.  Paticularly when you add in the extra attack.