Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FrogReaver Oct 05, 2014 14:45:22	If I am a wizard and I take the magic initiate feat and take a heal spell as my lvl 1 choice can I cast that spell more than once per day?   i think no because the feat itself restricts the spell chosen with it to being cast once per day   opinions???
#2 Novacat Oct 05, 2014 14:47:55	See my sig. Personally, I would allow you to cast the spell using your normal spell slots, and you would have one "free" cast per day.
#3 paulstrait Oct 05, 2014 15:50:07	This has been debated, and my sense is that there is not a perfect consensus.  It turns on the phrase "you learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level." In that phrase, if you interpret it as two separate things-- 1) you learn the spell; and 2) you can cast it at its lowest level -- then it would imply that, in addition to the free cast at level-1, that you, having learned the spell, can choose to include it among your prepared spells like all other spells that you have learned.    The example would be more clear cut if you were a wizard and you choose a wizard spell, since we know what it means to learn a wizard spell.  But if you choose a cleric spell, does it mean you are including it in your spellbook like other wizard spells, or do you pray for it?  If it is the latter, then there is no good reason to be able to use a wizard spell slot to cast it at a higher level; but if it is the former, then it seems reasonable.   In the section about preparing wizard spells, it says specifically that the list you prepare is of *wizard spells*, so I think the best interpretation is probably that you don't get to prepare a non-wizard spell (that you happen to have learned) for casting with wizard spell slots.  On the other hand, if you were a multiclass spellcaster, with one level of cleric, you could cast cleric levels at higher slots, and that might be more analagous to the spell initiate feat.   In my game, I would probably allow someone to 'learn' the spell and then choose to include it in their prepared spells, but I would want them to figure out what this means -- does it go in their spellbook?  Do they pray for it? etc.  In my mind, this doesn't really seem beyond the scope of what 5e feats do in general.  But I don't think there is an unambiguous and clear answer based on the rules that has achieved consensus.
#4 FrogReaver Oct 05, 2014 17:10:10	But doesn't the feat itself limit the number of times you can cast the spell?
(Reply to #4) Novacat	FrogReaver wrote:
#6 AaronOfBarbaria Oct 05, 2014 17:19:11	Mike Mearls weighed in on this topic via twitter - he said something along the lines of the feat saying specifically once per long rest, but that it probably wouldn't break anything to let a character spend spell slots to cast it more often.
(Reply to #5) FrogReaver	Novacat wrote:
#8 paulstrait Oct 05, 2014 17:33:11	FrogReaver wrote:
#9 Novacat Oct 05, 2014 17:35:56	FrogReaver wrote:
#10 lawrencehoy Oct 05, 2014 19:13:34	In my interpretation of the feat, there is no connection between the spell learned and the typical method of preparation for that class; therefore, the spell is learned independantly of any current class and is treated as always prepared and limited in usage to once per long rest (as if you were using a 1st Level spell slot to cast it).   NOTE: Taking the feat does not provide additional spell slots, it just doesn't require a spell slot to cast.
#11 FrogReaver Oct 05, 2014 19:17:55	Novacat, you made many assumptions in your last post.  An I'm fine with all those arguments and assumptions. I don't think it hurts anything To play it either way.    However there are no disclaimers provided.  The spell a character picks wih magic initiate can only be cast once per day.  That's raw.  That's what the feat says.   just because you want to also cast the spell usin a spell slot doesn't mean that limitation no longer applies.  Raw states you can only cast it once per day.  It doesn't say you can cast it without a spell slot only once per day.  It restricts it to once per day no matter how you are castin it.   further in the example you provided about a wizard picking his own shield spell with it.  Raw would only allow shield to be cast once per day even if you learn I another way.  Yea that's strange and I don't like that interaction anymore than you.     But the designers aren't gods.  They can write rules that have unintended consequences.  It doesn't change what they have written though. It just means you probly want to house rule a fix for that scenario
(Reply to #10) FrogReaver	lawrencehoy wrote:
#13 lawrencehoy Oct 05, 2014 19:31:42	FrogReaver wrote:
#14 MechaPilot Oct 05, 2014 19:36:08	Based on the way the feat is worded, particularly the use of the language that says you learn the spell, I think you can prepare that spell in your other spell slots IF the spell is on your class' spell list.  Otherwise, according to the wording, I don't think you can.   However, I say screw that; a feat is a big investment in 5e.  As a DM, I'd let a PC prep that spell as if the spell were added to her class' spell list.  But that's just me.
#15 FrogReaver Oct 05, 2014 19:41:35	Mecha, even if you can prepare it on your spell list does that mean you can disregard the words in the feat that say you can only cast that spell once per day?   by the way I 2nd the motion that a feat is a big investment.  So I'd say screw it to more than likely and allow it to be prepared and cast using spell slots as well
#16 MechaPilot Oct 05, 2014 20:07:24	FrogReaver wrote:
#17 Undrhil Oct 05, 2014 21:46:43	I would be very careful in just willy-nilly handwaving away limitations put on things from feats.   The feat says, all in one sentence without any interruptions: "You learn that spell and can cast it at it's lowest level."  This implies that you know the spell (for the section on spellcasting in regards to "knowing and preparing spells" and that you are limited in using it only as a level 1 spell.   The feat then follows that with: "Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you cast it again."  This places a further limit on the spell: you can only cast it once per long rest.   Now, the fact that you "learned" the spell and "can cast it at its lowest level" combined with the fact that you "must finish a long rest before you can cast it again" is pretty clear-cut.   Anyone claiming that this allows you to cast the spell using your standard class spell slots is simply trying to game the system.   If a DM wants to allow their players to cast this above and beyond the once per long rest limitation, that's fine.  However, for RAW purposes (for Adventuerer's League specifically) this is a definite case of "Cast once, then take a long rest to cast it again."   If you already know the spell, why would you take that spell again with this feat?  What possible reason could you have?  A once-per-long rest extra use of Cure Wounds?  That's nice, but since it's only going to be cast at level 1, that's 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier (WIS).   As far as feats being an expensive resource.  Yes, they are.  This one gives you two cantrips *which scale with character level*.  That by itself is worth the feat, depending on the cantrips chosen.  The addition of gaining a once-per-day level 1 spell is just icing on top.
#18 MechaPilot Oct 05, 2014 22:02:28	Undrhil wrote:
(Reply to #17) FrogReaver	Undrhil wrote:
(Reply to #18) Undrhil	MechaPilot wrote:
#21 lawrencehoy Oct 06, 2014 3:33:49	I think the feat is designed to allow non-casters to have a little of the spellcasting experience, and to allow casters of one class to gain limited access to spells from another casting class (including 2 cantrips and a single 1st level spell).
#22 Timborama Oct 06, 2014 6:02:25	While you may "learn" the spell, it is not added to your spell list or spell book. So a "maybe, ask your DM" for known-spell casters (like sorcerers) but a flat-out "no" for prepared spellcasters like Druid and Wizard (but a lenient DM is free to bend the rules, of course).   Either way I don't think I'd allow it. Feats are indeed a big resource, but I'm really hoping no one in my group ever picks up on this, plays a spontaneous caster, and wants to take this feat...
#23 MechaPilot Oct 06, 2014 18:12:21	Undrhil wrote:
#24 Drycanth Oct 06, 2014 18:41:01	are you kidding me?   A human fighter level 1 can take the alternate package and gain this feat and take produce flame and mending. Now you no longer fear a rust monster and can fix your junk that gets busted up and you have a torch at will that you can use for ranged attacks ... cause lets face it when in doubt set it on fire.   combined with cure wounds and this level 1 human fighter is nearly a party unto himself. best of all these all are usefull at all levels as having an at will torch and being able to fix your stuff will earn you cash at the local black smiths etc...   Two cantrips are a huge deal.
#25 MechaPilot Oct 06, 2014 19:06:41	Drycanth wrote:
#26 JohnnyBlaise Oct 07, 2014 17:00:37	Only rangers, sorcerors and warlocks know spells.  Everyone else prepares spells off a list or from a spellbook.  So if you are a ranger, sorceror or warlock, then by all means, you can use your slots to cast those spells.
#27 jonathonhawke Oct 07, 2014 17:25:10	JohnnyBlaise wrote:
#28 DracoSuave Oct 09, 2014 14:00:19	JohnnyBlaise wrote:
#29 kimura121 Oct 09, 2014 22:23:41	As much as I really want to add Armour of Agathys to my  abjuration mage's normal spell list with this feat, I just dont think it works......
#30 JohnnyBlaise Oct 11, 2014 11:10:22	Oh yes, arcane trickster and eldritch knights too, agreed.  But not clerics druids or wizards.  The language is very clear.  The feat says you KNOW.  The classes listed say you can cast spells you KNOW.  A>B, B>C.
(Reply to #26) FrogReaver	Sure but regardless of how you cast the spell the feat limits it to being cast once per long rest...   JohnnyBlaise wrote:
#32 Strill Oct 15, 2014 0:40:45	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #32) 2Chlorobutanal	Strill wrote:
#34 Strill Oct 15, 2014 1:28:55	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #32) FrogReaver	Got any rules for your claim?   I got one for mine.  "Once you cast it you must finish a long rest before you cast it again"  There is simply nothing here to suggest that this restriction changes depedning on how you are trying to cast the spell.   Strill wrote:
#36 Strill Oct 15, 2014 2:17:35	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #36) FrogReaver	I don't have the book in front of me.  I anticipate that it is worded appropriately such that it only requires one or the other but like I said I don't have the book in front of me so I can't say for sure.  I will later though.   Strill wrote:
(Reply to #33) FrogReaver	Well said.   2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#39 paulstrait Oct 15, 2014 14:44:59	2Chlorobutanal wrote: