I just want to make sure I understand Magic Initiate now.
The first level spell I can choose from Magic Initiate can only be used once per long rest, unless the spell you choose is on your class spell list, correct?
What if the class you pick is different but the spell is on your spell list? Such as a Cleric picking Sorcerer for Magic Initiate and taking Detect Magic? Since Detect Magic is on both spell lists, can I cast Detect Magic using my spell slots if I don't prepare it as a Cleric?
Undrhil wrote:
Post Sage Advice? It depends. Jeremy lists a really restrictive ruling, then follows up with 'in short, follow the usual spellcasting rules', which are completely different to what he listed. I personally choose to go with regular spellcasting rules. In which case if you have the spell slot, and know the spell, you can cast it using the slot.
The Sage Advice is explicit and clear. You can only use slots to cast spells if you have the Spellcasting Feature for the class of that spell. So if you are a cleric/wizard, and use MI for a druid spell... then its only once a day. If you use MI for a cleric spell... then you may use the slots for it.
Nothing in the errata changed any of the pertinent rules for this. (It lifted a restriction, it did not provide a permission.)
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Cleric Spell casting rules:
"The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest."
Sadly they used a pronoun "your" in that sentence.
your = Cleric.
Further evidence of this fact:
"You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells..."
Obviously they have used the pronoun "your" to refer to cleric here as well.
Therefore the truth is that class spell slots can only be used for class spells.
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The interesting thing is that this reading lines up perfectly with the sage advice. Kinda funny how that works isn't it?
FrogReaver wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Additionally the fact that the second your has to be called out as refering to cleric spells reinforces the point that the first your is, in fact, "your spells", not weakens it.
Yunru wrote:
I don't care about the spell slot use either way, but I am pretty sure that the use of "your" means "You" the player or "Your Character". Look at the races and backgrounds and they all have "you" as a pronoun. "You have proficiency with artisan's tools", etc. It follows that they used "your" as the possessive of "you" to remain consistant in use through the PHB.
Undrhil wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Enevhar_Aldarion wrote:
WorBlade wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Yunru wrote:
To me, it's at least implied that different sources of spellcasting are normally nontransferrable, in the sense that knowing how to cast a spell one way doesn't mean you know how to cast another spell, or even the same exact spell, a different way.
That is to say, using your example spell, knowing how to cast detect magic the way a bard does doesn't mean you know how to cast it the way an arcane trickster, a cleric, a druid, an eldritch knight, a paladin, a ranger, a sorceror, a warlock with eldritch sight, a wizard, a cambion, a couatl, a glabrezu, a pit fiend, a variant drider, a dao, a djinni, an efreeti, a marid, a cloud giant, a storm giant, a night hag, a kuo-toa priest, a lich, a mind flayer arcanist, a spirit naga, a rakshasa, a sauhuagin priestess, a green slaad, a gray slaad, a death slaad, a sphinx, a gynosphinx, an arcanaloth, a nycoloth, an ultroloth, an archmage, or a mage can.
The example Cleric knows enough of how to cast the way Sorcerer does to manage the feat of casting Detect Magic as a sorcerer would once per day, but is not knowledgeable / capable enough in the ways of a sorcerer (being an initiate, after all) to be able to use general spells slots for said task.
Coredump00 wrote:
So he says how Magic initiate works, and says it works the same as regular spellcasting... and you are having trouble following that line of reasoning?
Let me give you a hand.... regular spellcasting works the same as he says Magic initiate works.
A) It would of been Eratta'd, and
B) that would of been the focus, not Magic Initiate.
Yunru wrote:
abanathie wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Your claim has already been checked out Coredump. The problem with the Crawford tweet is that he indicates a very restrictive ruling, then contradicts himself and says to follow the usual spellcasting rules. The usual spellcasting rules as pointed out by Yunru don't have any such restriction anywhere in the text. You can't quote any piece of text that supports the restrictions imposed by the first chunk of the Crawford tweet.
Again as pointed out by Yunru there's 2 unique sections being quoted selectively. one is about spellcasting and one is specifically about spells known. You can't use the spells known rules taken out of their context to then say that there's restrictions in another section of the spellcasting rules as a whole. That's not how this works gents. Furthermore as Yunru pointed out:
Yunru wrote:
Personal insults don't change facts. Yes the PHB spells it out clearly: the Spellcasting feature allows you to cast your spells. Not "Cleric spells" or "Sorcerer spells", "your spells". The Spells known feature lets you know spells to cast, of that class. The entire system, from the base up is permissive, not restrictive.[/quote]\
I believe you are thinking of this the wrong way around. You are reading the book and it doesn’t make sense and then extrapolating it to say that the errata contradicts the book, and is also wrong. However when an errata comes, that IS the rule. The errata says;
‘The feat’s limit on casting the 1st-level spell applies only to the casting given by the feat.’
Now, in an official publication that clarifies this rule, it states;
‘If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1stlevel spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare. In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate’.
When taken together, the magic initiate errata is as follows;
1. You can cast a spell gain by the magic initiate feat using spell slots from the same class you gained the spell from (i.e. wizard taking the feat for wizard spells and is able to case using their spell slots.)
2. If you take the feat for a spell outside your spell list (i.e. wizard taking a spell from the sorcerer list) you cannot cast it using your spell slots. This is because you haven’t gained the spellcasting feature for that class. For full casters you gain this at level 1.
Now I agree that this get a bit weird when you remember that some classes have KNOWN spell lists that they can cast at will using spell slots, vs PREPAIRED spell lists. But it is also clear that the designers of the game have decided that this is a limitation of the feat.
Personally I think this limitation makes sense in some cases more than others. For example, a wizard taking the feat for a cleric spell. A wizard gets their magic from arcane sources, where as a cleric gets their magic from a blessing of their god. This doesn’t quite make sense for wizard and source, or paladin and cleric, but nevertheless this is the rule we are given.
Yunru wrote:
The [class] table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
Yunru wrote:
Although in both cases Chapter 10 clearly states that if you've a spell slot you can use it to cast a spell of equal or lower level.
That still doesn't overwrite the specific rules within each class.
You're still failing to comprehend the definition of "these". Here's the most common wording in each of the different spellcasting class features:
"To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher."
These is "used to indicate a person, place, thing or degree as present, near, just indicated or mentioned, or as well-known or characteristic". You can also define it as the pural of "this". "This" is "used to indicate a person, thing, idea or event as present, near, just mentioned or by way of emphasis." Whichever definition you want to use, these refers to an "idea" that is physically located "near" the sentence within the book. Class spells is the only thing "near" the "idea" of spells; specifically, the only thing that is consistently located by "these spells" is the concept of how spells are gained by a specific class. The spell gained by Magic Initiate is 54 pages, at least in my PHB, away from "these spells"; the Magic Initiate spell would actually qualify as "that spell" as opposed as these spells.
The point is... you can argue all day that the PHB wording is uncertain, or inconsistent, or whatever you want. But WotC has taken the effort to explicity tell us *exactly* how it works.... but you keep wanting to ignore that.
FROM WOTC
For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know
Yunru wrote:
For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate.[...]
In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.
Obviously, you haven't done your research on Sage Advice. The basic format presented by the author is to answer the question and then explain the reasoning for that answer. He gave an answer. He could have provided a better explanation, but that doesn't change the answer.
Yunru wrote:
Okay for everyones benefit here is the magic initiate sage advice:
If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.
In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.
Clearly the answer is you can use spell slots to cast the spell given by magic initiate if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. Q.E.D.
To argue that they didn't say this is wrong because they said it.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Which I'm betting he will.
Yunru wrote:
Which brings us full circle back to my earlier post:
Ask him on twitter.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru,
Going back to the "your spells" line in the cleric rules for a moment.
Do "your spells" only count as your prepared spells for the day? Or are "your spells" including any of the cleric spells you know but have not prepared for the day?
Can someone point me to the rule that gives a cleric permission to ever use his spell slots to cast another classes spell? I'm not finding one. In fact I'm not finding a rule that gives the cleric permission to cast anything but prepared cleric spells.
Spellcasting (for the cleric)
1. The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher.
Respone. This is simply the rule to use to determine the number of spell slots you have
2. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher.
Respone. This rule doesn't say you can cast any spell. It simply sets up the requirement that you expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher to cast the spell.
3. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
Respone. This rule tells you when you get expended spell slots back
4. You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list.
Resone. This is the only rule that explicitly gives permission for casting spells at all and it specifically restricts itself to allowing prepared cleric spells.
5. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell).
Respone. This rule is used to determine how many cleric spells you can prepare
6. The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Respone. This rule places a restriction on what cleric spells you can prepare
................
So can someone show me a rule that gives the cleric permission to cast any other spells?
abanathie wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Yunru wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
A wizard can cast a spell learned from Magic Initiate (see the Sage Advice Compendium). http://t.co/fgklGvKkd8 https://t.co/P2PsbkFgD4
Guess who was right?
Yunru wrote:
In fact the more I read that Twitter exchange the more in think jc was answering the question... Can the wizard cast the magic initiate spell at all. Yes.
He emphasized sage advice as well.
He also said wizards class feature lets them prepare wizard spells.
States ek and ranger can cast a magic initiate spell not of their class... Well duh the feat grants that ability.
No where in this exchange did he say anyone could cast a non class spell with a spell slot.
He only interesting comment in the exchange was that ek and ranger work differently with magic initiate than wizard.
Personally I surmise that is because you can't take an ek or ranger spell with magic initiate.
We are just going with the simple you learned a spell from the feat, use your slots to cast it or your 1 free casting at base level. Overall it really has little impact on the game or balance and keeps things simple, as the system strives to do.
Yunru wrote:
I see nothing in that exchange that supports Yunru's position. The phrase "spell slots" never appears in that exchange at all.
guachi wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Abanthie, where did jc every day rangers can cast magic initiate spells with spell slots?
It's kinda of obvious that the discussion was about Magic Initiate and spell slots. If it weren't about spell slots, would JC have deferred the Wizard? No, he would have said that Wizards could cast the spell. The differences between each classes' wording in Spellcasting has no impact on the daily ability to cast Magic Initiate spells. The previous conversation that is left out of a few of the links specifically referred to rangers, magic initiate and spell slots. JC specifically answered the question pertaining that.
abanathie wrote:
I look at it and apply it this way in my games as plainly as this:
If you wish to use one of your spell slots to cast the MI spell (regardless of the class you chose the feat to tie to), look at the spell list tied to the slot you wish to expend. Is that MI spell on that list? If so, you can do it.
So for example if a bard took MI (cleric) and picked up Cure Wounds with it, he can also use his bard slots to cast it because that spell exists on the bard spell list. If he had instead taken Shield of Faith as his MI (cleric) spell, he would not be able to do so because that spell does not exist on the bard spell list.
FrogReaver wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
It's formatted correctly... but won't come out correctly...
abanathie wrote:
Yunru wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
abanathie wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Yunru wrote:
EDIT: I responded before reading all the posts.... so I was behind the curve on the new info from JC.... so I deleted it.
Coredump00 wrote:
EDIT: you know what, forget it. Doesn't matter. Carry on 
I'm pretty much going with the simpler you learn the spell therefore can cast it with your slots. If you are required to prepare spells, it's always considered prepared. KISS.
This is a feat we are talking about. The equivilent to +2 to a stat. Do people really think it's OP or is this just pedantic arguments about wording in memory of the 3e and 4e days?
Yunru wrote:
Now that makes sense. You have to make sure that you're not stepping on the special snowflake's toes when you pick your feats. /WTF 
FarBeyondC wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FarBeyondC wrote: