Magical Weapon to Pact Weapon Question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Nexus6 Nov 30, 2014 10:37:56	I just can't seem to find a definitive answer to this... If a warlock converts a magical weapon into his/her pact weapon, and then summons the pact weapon at a later time, can the warlock choose the form that weapon takes (and change it?) i.e. a warlock finds a Spider Staff - a staff that add extra poison damage on a hit and has some charges to do some extra things. Can that warlock make that spider staff his pact weapon, and then in the future, summon it as a spider "glaive" - gaining all the benefits of a glaive (reach etc), pact weapon, AND the bonuses of the spider staff? Or does the pact weapon always appear as it's original form - in this example, a spider staff only (with pact weapon benefits). It seems to be VERY powerful if permitted, but at the same time defeats some of the core benefits of the pact of the blade if NOT permitted.
#2 bonethug0108 Nov 30, 2014 11:58:33	From reading it there is no clear definitive answer. I'm reading as: a) you can get any regular melee weapon OR you can use a magic weapon in it's regular form(being that the magic weapon part is intentionally separate and doesn't state you can change it's form). or b) you can use a magic weapon and still get the normal benefits(changing the weapon). Personally, I think a magic weapon should have to remain in it's original form as that is a specific weapon(the magic was imbued into that particular object), whereas when you are "summoning" a regular weapon it isn't any specific weapon(so option a). But really I see no major issue with a DM ruling either way. After all he is the one giving out the magic item so he would know the consequences of his ruling.
#3 OoftaMeg Nov 30, 2014 11:39:42	I read it as being either-or. Either you create a pact blade that can take any shape or you can make a magic weapon your pact blade (and therefore it can't be changed). One is conjuring a new weapon when you need it, the other is summoning a specific weapon. But I would agree that this one is an "ask your DM".
#4 Nexus6 Dec 02, 2014 13:33:42	Thanks all for the comments.... Additionally to the previous question, the text does not seem clear on another matter - does having a magical pact weapon EXCLUDE calling up a different form of a "normal" pact weapon? From the book: You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon....blah blah, blah....and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. The wording seems to indicate that after you create a pact weapon from a magical item, "it" appears whenever you create it - i.e. the magic weapon. So from that, it seems by the wording that if I have a magical +2 sword that I have converted to my pact weapon, then I am UNABLE to create a maul pact weapon to hit something with bludgeoning damage.
#5 Avross Dec 02, 2014 11:42:40	Somewhere in that section (don't have the book in front of me), you should also see: "You can only have one pact weapon at a time." One would think that you've just hit on a weakness of warlocks bonding magic items as their pact weapons....the loss of flexibility.
#6 Mephi1234 Dec 02, 2014 18:45:05	Flexibility was never really a huge strength of pact weapons in the first place. The whole point of it is that you have a magical summonable weapon. Choosing random weapons has never been that big of a deal, and, in fact, the game doesn't really support that style of play. When you get a magical weapon... why would you summon any other melee weapon? Once you get some Mastery feats, why would you use anything but that weapon you mastered? The game has tried to go the route of the "general weapon user" in the past and, frankly, its always been a failure. People perfer weapon specialization. You can't really say its a weakness when its something that not many people do in the first place! Especially now, when your magical weapons are so rare and precious. Chances are, a hexblade will be using a Blade in one hand and Rod of the Pact Bearer in the second one. Or, if they lack War Caster, nothing in the second hand. It can't be a ranged weapon. Unless you start off going with Fighter first level, you're very much likely to be going with a Dex build. So... really, when it comes right down with it, one handed finesse weapons is not exactly a large, variable category here. You've got rapiers, short swords, scimitars, the whip, and the dagger. There's no point in having daggers, since you generally don't want to throw your pact blade; I suppose there's the occasional person who does. Short sword and scimitars are pretty much the same weapon. Rapier is a better damage than short sword, but a loss of the light property... which is fine, since, again, you likely won't be using two weapon fighting; your bonus action is usually taken up by Hex or another spell, and you've got the need to hang on to an arcane focus if you have Material component spells to cast, as well as the lack of support for TWF, either as fighting style or from Lifedrinker. So, generally speaking, your options are rapier/shortsword/scimitar (very little difference for a hexblade), a whip for the reach property, or a dagger if you ahve some crazy idea in mind for throwing your hexblade in combat. Considering the dagger thing is very unlikely (eldritch blast covers most of your ranged needs), that really leaves two weapon style choices - rapier/shortsword/scimitar, or the whip. Ranged melee, or a bit more damage. Now, all that is assuming a Dex build, the default for a blade warlock. If we start off with a Fighter 1, Warlock X build... then we start having to look at weapon mastery feats. Chances are, you're going to be going for Great Weapon Fighting or Polearm Mastery. Chances are Great Weapon Fighting, as using the polearm mastery requires using a bonus action and reaction for damage, which is usually taken up by Hellish Rebuke and Hex. So... that leaves the question of what we're using. Again, needing a focus or free hand is a concern, so, despite being able to use a shield, its not always the smartest move. You're going to be choosing your spells and feats based on your prefered weapon style, which is going to again restrict what weapon you use. Even if you -could- change the shape of your hexblade at will, chances are, you won't. No big loss there.
#7 bonethug0108 Dec 02, 2014 19:12:20	Yeah if the weapons had more meaningful individuality maybe the flexibility would be a big benefit, but as it is most things that have resistance on one type of slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage usually have it on all 3(actually rereading it, there is almost no advantage there as it's also magical, which is usually how they are resisted). Reach vs. more damage vs. using dex vs. TWF potential at any point has some advantage but it isn't so much as to override just using a magic weapon in most cases.
#8 Rawrsong Dec 02, 2014 22:59:57	Side Question: Could a Pact of the Blade Warlock bond a magical longbow as their pact weapon? The first part of the Pact of the Blade feature mentions that a Warlock could materialize their pactblade into anytype of melee weapon. The third paragraph of the features explains the rules for bonding a pre-existing magical item as a pact weapon but never states that it must be a melee weapon. However the exact wording wording is "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon." I'm assuming that the act of transforming another weapon into a personal pact weapon forces the item to assume a melee form of the Warlock's choice.
#9 bonethug0108 Dec 02, 2014 23:10:39	It doesn't say the magic weapon can't be a ranged weapon. If the DM allows it, I'm not seeing how it breaks anything. And the DM would be the one giving you the magic item in the first place.
#10 Bogus73 Dec 03, 2014 7:59:47	I also think that you could use any 1-handed magic weapon as your pact weapon, since you automatically gain proficiency with it. (At least that's how I understood the rules.) 1-handed because you need a free hand for your focus. So if I found a Battleaxe or Flail I could make it my pact weapon and use it.
#11 Ashrym Dec 03, 2014 15:13:38	Mephi1234 wrote:
#12 Baphogoat Dec 15, 2014 14:19:14	If you read pact weapon it states the weapon can take any form, and you use a ritual to make any magical weapon your pact blade. To me this means you could find a magical weapon, turn it into your pact blade and then summon it in any form (you are basically summoning the magic of the weapon and not the weapon itself). The limitation, according to my understanding, is that you would not be able to do this to an intelligent weapon as it refused to be put away in your extra dimensional space, though it could still be your pact weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Nexus6

Nov 30, 2014 10:37:56

I just can't seem to find a definitive answer to this...

If a warlock converts a magical weapon into his/her pact weapon, and then summons the pact weapon at a later time, can the warlock choose the form that weapon takes (and change it?)

i.e. a warlock finds a Spider Staff - a staff that add extra poison damage on a hit and has some charges to do some extra things.

Can that warlock make that spider staff his pact weapon, and then in the future, summon it as a spider "glaive" - gaining all the benefits of a glaive (reach etc), pact weapon, AND the bonuses of the spider staff? Or does the pact weapon always appear as it's original form - in this example, a spider staff only (with pact weapon benefits).

It seems to be VERY powerful if permitted, but at the same time defeats some of the core benefits of the pact of the blade if NOT permitted.

bonethug0108

Nov 30, 2014 11:58:33

From reading it there is no clear definitive answer. I'm reading as:

a) you can get any regular melee weapon OR you can use a magic weapon in it's regular form(being that the magic weapon part is intentionally separate and doesn't state you can change it's form).

b) you can use a magic weapon and still get the normal benefits(changing the weapon).

Personally, I think a magic weapon should have to remain in it's original form as that is a specific weapon(the magic was imbued into that particular object), whereas when you are "summoning" a regular weapon it isn't any specific weapon(so option a).

But really I see no major issue with a DM ruling either way. After all he is the one giving out the magic item so he would know the consequences of his ruling.

OoftaMeg

Nov 30, 2014 11:39:42

I read it as being either-or. Either you create a pact blade that can take any shape or you can make a magic weapon your pact blade (and therefore it can't be changed). One is conjuring a new weapon when you need it, the other is summoning a specific weapon.

But I would agree that this one is an "ask your DM".

Nexus6

Dec 02, 2014 13:33:42

Thanks all for the comments....

Additionally to the previous question, the text does not seem clear on another matter - does having a magical pact weapon EXCLUDE calling up a different form of a "normal" pact weapon?

From the book:

You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon....blah blah, blah....and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter.

The wording seems to indicate that after you create a pact weapon from a magical item, "it" appears whenever you create it - i.e. the magic weapon. So from that, it seems by the wording that if I have a magical +2 sword that I have converted to my pact weapon, then I am UNABLE to create a maul pact weapon to hit something with bludgeoning damage.

Avross

Dec 02, 2014 11:42:40

Somewhere in that section (don't have the book in front of me), you should also see: "You can only have one pact weapon at a time." One would think that you've just hit on a weakness of warlocks bonding magic items as their pact weapons....the loss of flexibility.

Mephi1234

Dec 02, 2014 18:45:05

Flexibility was never really a huge strength of pact weapons in the first place. The whole point of it is that you have a magical summonable weapon. Choosing random weapons has never been that big of a deal, and, in fact, the game doesn't really support that style of play. When you get a magical weapon... why would you summon any other melee weapon? Once you get some Mastery feats, why would you use anything but that weapon you mastered?

The game has tried to go the route of the "general weapon user" in the past and, frankly, its always been a failure. People perfer weapon specialization. You can't really say its a weakness when its something that not many people do in the first place! Especially now, when your magical weapons are so rare and precious.

Chances are, a hexblade will be using a Blade in one hand and Rod of the Pact Bearer in the second one. Or, if they lack War Caster, nothing in the second hand. It can't be a ranged weapon. Unless you start off going with Fighter first level, you're very much likely to be going with a Dex build.

So... really, when it comes right down with it, one handed finesse weapons is not exactly a large, variable category here. You've got rapiers, short swords, scimitars, the whip, and the dagger. There's no point in having daggers, since you generally don't want to throw your pact blade; I suppose there's the occasional person who does. Short sword and scimitars are pretty much the same weapon. Rapier is a better damage than short sword, but a loss of the light property... which is fine, since, again, you likely won't be using two weapon fighting; your bonus action is usually taken up by Hex or another spell, and you've got the need to hang on to an arcane focus if you have Material component spells to cast, as well as the lack of support for TWF, either as fighting style or from Lifedrinker.

So, generally speaking, your options are rapier/shortsword/scimitar (very little difference for a hexblade), a whip for the reach property, or a dagger if you ahve some crazy idea in mind for throwing your hexblade in combat. Considering the dagger thing is very unlikely (eldritch blast covers most of your ranged needs), that really leaves two weapon style choices - rapier/shortsword/scimitar, or the whip. Ranged melee, or a bit more damage.

Now, all that is assuming a Dex build, the default for a blade warlock. If we start off with a Fighter 1, Warlock X build... then we start having to look at weapon mastery feats. Chances are, you're going to be going for Great Weapon Fighting or Polearm Mastery. Chances are Great Weapon Fighting, as using the polearm mastery requires using a bonus action and reaction for damage, which is usually taken up by Hellish Rebuke and Hex. So... that leaves the question of what we're using. Again, needing a focus or free hand is a concern, so, despite being able to use a shield, its not always the smartest move.

You're going to be choosing your spells and feats based on your prefered weapon style, which is going to again restrict what weapon you use.

Even if you -could- change the shape of your hexblade at will, chances are, you won't. No big loss there.

bonethug0108

Dec 02, 2014 19:12:20

Yeah if the weapons had more meaningful individuality maybe the flexibility would be a big benefit, but as it is most things that have resistance on one type of slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage usually have it on all 3(actually rereading it, there is almost no advantage there as it's also magical, which is usually how they are resisted). Reach vs. more damage vs. using dex vs. TWF potential at any point has some advantage but it isn't so much as to override just using a magic weapon in most cases.

Rawrsong

Dec 02, 2014 22:59:57

Side Question: Could a Pact of the Blade Warlock bond a magical longbow as their pact weapon?

The first part of the Pact of the Blade feature mentions that a Warlock could materialize their pactblade into anytype of melee weapon. The third paragraph of the features explains the rules for bonding a pre-existing magical item as a pact weapon but never states that it must be a melee weapon. However the exact wording wording is "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon." I'm assuming that the act of transforming another weapon into a personal pact weapon forces the item to assume a melee form of the Warlock's choice.

bonethug0108

Dec 02, 2014 23:10:39

It doesn't say the magic weapon can't be a ranged weapon. If the DM allows it, I'm not seeing how it breaks anything. And the DM would be the one giving you the magic item in the first place.

#10

Bogus73

Dec 03, 2014 7:59:47

I also think that you could use any 1-handed magic weapon as your pact weapon, since you automatically gain proficiency with it. (At least that's how I understood the rules.)

1-handed because you need a free hand for your focus.

So if I found a Battleaxe or Flail I could make it my pact weapon and use it.

#11

Ashrym

Dec 03, 2014 15:13:38

Mephi1234 wrote:

#12

Baphogoat

Dec 15, 2014 14:19:14

If you read pact weapon it states the weapon can take any form, and you use a ritual to make any magical weapon your pact blade. To me this means you could find a magical weapon, turn it into your pact blade and then summon it in any form (you are basically summoning the magic of the weapon and not the weapon itself). The limitation, according to my understanding, is that you would not be able to do this to an intelligent weapon as it refused to be put away in your extra dimensional space, though it could still be your pact weapon.