Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tyrionlannister2113 Jun 25, 2015 19:49:31	Upon first reading the rules on ability checks in the Player's Handbook (pg.174) I gathered that whenever you make an ability check, the situation always falls under one of an ability's listed skills. For example, whenever a situation requires you to make a Dexterity check, it falls under a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check, a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, or a Dexterity (Stealth) check. However, after looking back at it, parts of the rules seem to imply there are situations that wouldn't fall under any of an ability's skills for a check, instead being made with just the raw ability itself. This is further evidenced to me by this article https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/ability-check where it says "Whenever the rules say you're making a check using one of the six ability scores, you're making an ability check. This is true whether or not the check involves a skill". If such a situation occurs, would I just handle it the same way I would an ability check with a skill and treat it like they aren't proficient with the check (since you can't be proficient with actually abilities), or would I go off saving throw proficiencies?
#2 BoldItalic Jun 25, 2015 20:16:16	Treat it as an ability check with no proficiency bonus.   Saving throw proficiencies are for saving throws. They don't cross over.
#3 tyrionlannister2113 Jun 25, 2015 20:23:58	Okay that solves it, thanks!
#4 Kalani Jun 25, 2015 20:47:42	I have said this multiple times in this forum:   There are three kinds of d20 roll.  Attack Rolls Saving Throws Ability Checks (including skills and Initiative) Despite the fact that all three rolls use the same mechanics (d20 + ability modifier + proficiency bonus if proficient) - they are all mutually distinct rolls. If you have a bonus to an attack roll / saving throw / or ability check - it can only be applied to rolls of that type. It cannot be applied to either of the two other rolls.
#5 Greenstone.Walker Jun 25, 2015 22:35:45	As an aside, the skills do not necessarily have to go with the Ability Score listed in the book. I believe the book has an example of making a CON (Athletics) roll for sustained activity like swimming a long distance.   I could imagine an INT (Animal Handling) check to find information about a particular animal in a library. I would allow a WIS (Sleight of Hand) to spot dodgy goings-on (the DEX (Sleight of Hand) would be for the character actually doing the dodgy stuff).
#6 tyrionlannister2113 Jun 26, 2015 0:34:11	I see, I think I found the variant rule you're talking about for that, thanks! But after thinking about it a bit more, I must ask, do passive checks work the same way? Is it possible to just make a passive Strength check, instead of a passive Strength (Athletics) check using what BoldItalic said? Or do passive checks specifically need skills? This seems to be the latter as in the PHB on pg. 175 the example for the DM asking for a Strength (Athletics) check states that if the player is not proficient in Athletics he or she just makes a Strength check instead, while In the case of the passive checks (explained on the same page) being proficient in a skill only benefits you by giving you a proficiency bonus, while not having one seems to have no consequences. A problem arises though if one were to (in a rare case) make a passive check for Constitution, which has no skills.
#7 jeff-heikkinen Jun 26, 2015 1:23:34	I see no reason that a passive check couldn't be against an ability score rather than a skill, although none of the ones defined in the current rules work like that.
(Reply to #6) Cooperjera	tyrionlannister2113 wrote:
#9 Thoughts_My_Aim Jun 26, 2015 11:46:45	Not sure if there's any rules support for it, but for what it's worth I'd also be inclined to allow Proficiency on a straight Ability check, if it covers the sort of thing that some characters might be better at than others for non-ability-related reasons. (And indeed part of me is tempted to ditch Skills entirely and just allow Proficiency on anything it seems reasonable that a character would be good at).
#10 tyrionlannister2113 Jun 26, 2015 12:30:15	Well first off, I have definetely come to the conclusion the rules support my initial question, meaning there are cases where ability checks use only the ability, and not a specific skill because the attempt being made by the player might not fall under any one of those categories. This also would apply for NPCs (unless created with proficiencies) and Monsters, as they have no proficiencies in skills. As far passive checks without skills, I now believe that based on the responses and going through the player handbook one more time, there can be passive checks that only use the ability and not the specific skill as well. These are just not shown in the book, but they would be handled the same way, in terms of how you would just not give them the proficiency bonus. Here would be an example: The DM wants to secretly determine whether the character(s) succeed at something without rolling the dice, such as getting a gut feeling about what course of action to follow in a situation, so he makes a passive Wisdom check for said character(s). The DM decides that the task does not fall under any of the skills for Wisdom, so the way to find this would be 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check (so your Wisdom modifier in this case), but they would not add a proficiency bonus to the score.
#11 El_Condoro Jun 27, 2015 2:36:47	You're correct in saying there are ability checks not tied to a skill. Each ability has a section Other (ability) checks. There, a number of examples of (at the DM's discretion) non-skill-based checks are listed.
#12 TheNovaLord Jun 27, 2015 3:59:10	Yep. Lots types traps not all needing slight of hand for the check. System should be flexible
#13 Rya.Reisender Jun 29, 2015 4:14:01	As El_Condoro said, there are general ability checks not related to skills. This is actually covered in the rules, they even give examples!
#14 Greenstone.Walker Jun 29, 2015 15:58:19	As another aside, tools are a proficiency check made without a skill.   For example, a DEX (Thief's Tools) check. If proficient in Thief's Tools then it is DEX Modifier + Proficiency Modifer, else it is just DEX Modifier.
#15 Danny_Montanny Jun 30, 2015 17:14:27	You can think of any dice roll as: luck + natural aptitude + training if applicable. If the outcome of any action the player takes is uncertain, then that's when the roll comes into play.   Passive checks can be much the same. If the outcome is uncertain, there's a consequence for failure, but the PC can do the action repeatedly.