Medusa: for your eyes only - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 AndyDay Jun 02, 2015 6:19:50	Greetings, A medusa became surrounded in my Saturday night session. She was surrounded by a flock of blood ravens the Druid summoned. When the ravens came up in initiative, I said: "roll their save vs petrifaction." My player rebuked me, saying that she can only face 1 direction. Thus not all the ravens could see her eyes. I said ok, and only had a few of them roll. But it's been chafing me. Logic dictates that one can only gaze at so many targets in a specific moment in time. However, there isn't a lot of storytelling logic here. The medusas petrifying gaze is ambient, constant. Not a momentary flash. Further, the game allows that you can see in all directions (the DMg optional facing rules not withstanding). So it seems to me that anybody who can see the medusa should have to make the save, unless something specifically narrative says otherwise. Maybe you're sneaking up behind her, so you cannot see her eyes and you're safe. Maybe she has a bag on her head. Whatevs. What at have been your experiences with the medusa? Have you run into this?
#2 smacintush Jun 02, 2015 6:57:09	In terms of facing, this would be an example of specific trumping general. True, there are no facing rules but the creature still has to be able to see her eyes. Also, a normal swarm of ravens is immune to petrification, so I think it is reasonable that this flock of blood ravens would be as well.
#3 Mechatarrasque Jun 02, 2015 7:18:46	I would say a bird or two catches a glimpse of the medusa's eyes and petrifies, but that isn't enough for the swarm to take damage (admittedly this works better for swarms of bugs or rats), which would be consistent with other swarms as smacintush said.
#4 Synjin Jun 02, 2015 7:34:06	When a creature that can see the medusa's eyes starts its turn...
#5 Noctaem Jun 02, 2015 7:38:31	smacintush wrote:
(Reply to #2) OoftaMeg	smacintush wrote:
#7 Synjin Jun 02, 2015 7:43:04	Summoned creatures I wouldn't think have the INT to know to look away on their turn, and unless the spell specifically says the caster can control them on their turn, I'd say they attack just like any normal, regular beast and go at it.
#8 Synjin Jun 02, 2015 7:44:05	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #8) OoftaMeg	Synjin wrote:
#10 Noctaem Jun 02, 2015 8:15:42	Synjin wrote:
#11 Synjin Jun 02, 2015 8:19:31	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #5) smacintush	Noctaem wrote:
#13 Noctaem Jun 02, 2015 8:37:18	@ Smacintush Can't seem to find the rule that says petrification can't affect a swarm. Swarms usually make 1 saving throw against effects which then affect the entire swarm whatever the result is. Could you give me the page number where you have found these rules?
(Reply to #13) smacintush	Noctaem wrote:
#15 Synjin Jun 02, 2015 8:53:30	smacintush wrote:
#16 Noctaem Jun 02, 2015 9:08:26	smacintush wrote:
#17 Mechatarrasque Jun 02, 2015 9:48:50	I think this is one of the rulings vs rules thing. If the druid is using conjure animals, there is a set # of blood ravens, and the questions are "can a bunch of conjured blood ravens be a swarm?" and the related "what is the minimum # of birds to make up a swarm?" For bugs, I think of hundreds if not thousands of critters, and for rats, at least borderline hundred. Birds? Have to think about it, maybe a couple of dozen, at the very least. If there aren't sufficient birds to make a swarm, then the gaze attack rules come into play.
#18 OoftaMeg Jun 02, 2015 10:02:56	I've personally never liked ravens as swarms...they're pretty huge bird and average wing spans over two feet. I just don't see them falling into the same category as hundreds (or even thousands) of bees. In addition I agree that a congress of ravens isn't necessarily a swarm.
#19 Synjin Jun 02, 2015 11:29:54	The MM specifically mentions that "Swarms" as definied as encounters, are more than just a certian number of the same creature. THE NATURE OF SWARMS The swarms presented here aren't ordinary or benign assemblies of little creatures. They form as a result of some sinister or unwholesome influence. A vampire can summon swarms of bats and rats from the darkest corners of the night, while the very presence of a mummy lord can cause scarab beetles to boil up from the sand-filled depths of its tomb. A hag might have the power to turn swarms of ravens against her enemies, while a yuan-ti abomination might have swarms of poisonous snakes slithering in its wake. Even druids can't charm these swarms, and their aggressiveness is borderline unnatural.
#20 reddaemon Jun 02, 2015 11:49:32	I'm guessing the "Blood Ravens" are refluffed Blood Hawks that the Druid summoned with Conjure Animals. I would probably houserule it to only affect half of them, but on the other hand you could always just say she is whirling around in combat to avoid leaving herself open to a flanked attack (and in the process is looking at everyone). Combat should be adjudicated as being fluid and not just a sequence of people moving and stopping while waiting for the next person to move. RAW, it affects everyone within 30 feet.
#21 Synjin Jun 02, 2015 11:57:37	reddaemon wrote:
#22 Razintarr Jun 04, 2015 4:05:35	Aww, the druid missed a great opportunity. He could have summoned the ravens above the medusa. The ravens that make their save can attack her, the ones that don't become heavy blunt objects fully subject to the the law of gravity.
#23 Noctaem Jun 04, 2015 4:18:00	Razintarr wrote:
#24 AndyDay Jun 10, 2015 15:51:22	I meant blood hawks I guess. I don't have my MM with me. It's a dinky bird which the Druid can summon 8 of using a 3rd level spell. It's not a swarm. And for the record, 8 birds are way more powerful than any silly Fireball or Haste spell. Thanks for all of the insight!
#25 Noctaem Jun 10, 2015 17:53:39	AndyDay wrote:
#26 celtwarrior Jun 12, 2015 18:19:32	does the medusa gaze work on creatures with blindsight or echolocation?
#27 Noctaem Jun 12, 2015 20:07:53	celtwarrior wrote:
#28 BRJN Jun 13, 2015 19:36:43	For ease of use (and to speed up play), if you have a flock - not Swarm - of something sharing a square, facing a Medusa, make a group Save vs Petrification; if they fail, roll 1d6 and remove that many individuals. Not from RAW, and inspired by one of the old Sinbad movies where the Medusa had to trigger her Gaze on purpose. If your Medusa's gaze is "always on", be sure to describe all the bird- and mouse- and squirrel- shaped / sized rocks all over the landscape in front of her lair.
#29 MechaPilot Jun 13, 2015 20:05:30	Just a minor clarification for all parties, if the medusa is the one from the Monster Manual, the gaze is not "always on." The medusa can elect to force a save vs being petrified, and at no action cost to her, but it is not an automatic result of looking at her eyes while within 30 feet of her.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

AndyDay

Jun 02, 2015 6:19:50

Greetings,

A medusa became surrounded in my Saturday night session. She was surrounded by a flock of blood ravens the Druid summoned. When the ravens came up in initiative, I said: "roll their save vs petrifaction." My player rebuked me, saying that she can only face 1 direction. Thus not all the ravens could see her eyes. I said ok, and only had a few of them roll.

But it's been chafing me. Logic dictates that one can only gaze at so many targets in a specific moment in time. However, there isn't a lot of storytelling logic here. The medusas petrifying gaze is ambient, constant. Not a momentary flash.

Further, the game allows that you can see in all directions (the DMg optional facing rules not withstanding). So it seems to me that anybody who can see the medusa should have to make the save, unless something specifically narrative says otherwise. Maybe you're sneaking up behind her, so you cannot see her eyes and you're safe. Maybe she has a bag on her head. Whatevs.

What at have been your experiences with the medusa? Have you run into this?

smacintush

Jun 02, 2015 6:57:09

In terms of facing, this would be an example of specific trumping general. True, there are no facing rules but the creature still has to be able to see her eyes.

Also, a normal swarm of ravens is immune to petrification, so I think it is reasonable that this flock of blood ravens would be as well.

Mechatarrasque

Jun 02, 2015 7:18:46

I would say a bird or two catches a glimpse of the medusa's eyes and petrifies, but that isn't enough for the swarm to take damage (admittedly this works better for swarms of bugs or rats), which would be consistent with other swarms as smacintush said.

Synjin

Jun 02, 2015 7:34:06

When a creature that can see the medusa's eyes starts its turn...

Noctaem

Jun 02, 2015 7:38:31

smacintush wrote:

(Reply to #2)

OoftaMeg

smacintush wrote:

Synjin

Jun 02, 2015 7:43:04

Summoned creatures I wouldn't think have the INT to know to look away on their turn, and unless the spell specifically says the caster can control them on their turn, I'd say they attack just like any normal, regular beast and go at it.

Synjin

Jun 02, 2015 7:44:05

OoftaMeg wrote:

(Reply to #8)

OoftaMeg

Synjin wrote:

#10

Noctaem

Jun 02, 2015 8:15:42

Synjin wrote:

#11

Synjin

Jun 02, 2015 8:19:31

Noctaem wrote:

(Reply to #5)

smacintush

Noctaem wrote:

#13

Noctaem

Jun 02, 2015 8:37:18

@ Smacintush

Can't seem to find the rule that says petrification can't affect a swarm. Swarms usually make 1 saving throw against effects which then affect the entire swarm whatever the result is. Could you give me the page number where you have found these rules?

(Reply to #13)

smacintush

Noctaem wrote:

#15

Synjin

Jun 02, 2015 8:53:30

smacintush wrote:

#16

Noctaem

Jun 02, 2015 9:08:26

smacintush wrote:

#17

Mechatarrasque

Jun 02, 2015 9:48:50

I think this is one of the rulings vs rules thing. If the druid is using conjure animals, there is a set # of blood ravens, and the questions are "can a bunch of conjured blood ravens be a swarm?" and the related "what is the minimum # of birds to make up a swarm?" For bugs, I think of hundreds if not thousands of critters, and for rats, at least borderline hundred. Birds? Have to think about it, maybe a couple of dozen, at the very least. If there aren't sufficient birds to make a swarm, then the gaze attack rules come into play.

#18

OoftaMeg

Jun 02, 2015 10:02:56

I've personally never liked ravens as swarms...they're pretty huge bird and average wing spans over two feet. I just don't see them falling into the same category as hundreds (or even thousands) of bees.

In addition I agree that a congress of ravens isn't necessarily a swarm.

#19

Synjin

Jun 02, 2015 11:29:54

The MM specifically mentions that "Swarms" as definied as encounters, are more than just a certian number of the same creature.

THE NATURE OF SWARMS
The swarms presented here aren't ordinary or benign
assemblies of little creatures. They form as a result of some
sinister or unwholesome influence. A vampire can summon
swarms of bats and rats from the darkest corners of the
night, while the very presence of a mummy lord can cause
scarab beetles to boil up from the sand-filled depths of its
tomb. A hag might have the power to turn swarms of ravens
against her enemies, while a yuan-ti abomination might have
swarms of poisonous snakes slithering in its wake. Even
druids can't charm these swarms, and their aggressiveness
is borderline unnatural.

#20

reddaemon

Jun 02, 2015 11:49:32

I'm guessing the "Blood Ravens" are refluffed Blood Hawks that the Druid summoned with Conjure Animals. I would probably houserule it to only affect half of them, but on the other hand you could always just say she is whirling around in combat to avoid leaving herself open to a flanked attack (and in the process is looking at everyone). Combat should be adjudicated as being fluid and not just a sequence of people moving and stopping while waiting for the next person to move.

RAW, it affects everyone within 30 feet.

#21

Synjin

Jun 02, 2015 11:57:37

reddaemon wrote:

#22

Razintarr

Jun 04, 2015 4:05:35

Aww, the druid missed a great opportunity. He could have summoned the ravens above the medusa. The ravens that make their save can attack her, the ones that don't become heavy blunt objects fully subject to the the law of gravity.

#23

Noctaem

Jun 04, 2015 4:18:00

Razintarr wrote:

#24

AndyDay

Jun 10, 2015 15:51:22

I meant blood hawks I guess. I don't have my MM with me. It's a dinky bird which the Druid can summon 8 of using a 3rd level spell. It's not a swarm. And for the record, 8 birds are way more powerful than any silly Fireball or Haste spell.

Thanks for all of the insight!

#25

Noctaem

Jun 10, 2015 17:53:39

AndyDay wrote:

#26

celtwarrior

Jun 12, 2015 18:19:32

does the medusa gaze work on creatures with blindsight or echolocation?

#27

Noctaem

Jun 12, 2015 20:07:53

celtwarrior wrote:

#28

BRJN

Jun 13, 2015 19:36:43

For ease of use (and to speed up play), if you have a flock - not Swarm - of something sharing a square, facing a Medusa, make a group Save vs Petrification; if they fail, roll 1d6 and remove that many individuals.

Not from RAW, and inspired by one of the old Sinbad movies where the Medusa had to trigger her Gaze on purpose.

If your Medusa's gaze is "always on", be sure to describe all the bird- and mouse- and squirrel- shaped / sized rocks all over the landscape in front of her lair.

#29

MechaPilot

Jun 13, 2015 20:05:30

Just a minor clarification for all parties, if the medusa is the one from the Monster Manual, the gaze is not "always on." The medusa can elect to force a save vs being petrified, and at no action cost to her, but it is not an automatic result of looking at her eyes while within 30 feet of her.