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| #1Ken_of_HorrorsSep 30, 2014 17:47:53 | I excitedly thumbed through my Monster Manual today, and I was disappointed by two notable omissions relative to 3.5: * There are very few monster templates. For example, there are stats for (generic) Zombies, Orge Zombie, and Beholder Zombies (!), but there are no general rules for making a zombie out of nearly any creature. * Core monsters like goblins, kobolds, and ogres are given generic stats and maybe one or two more advanced forms (like the "Goblin Boss"), but there is no direct guidance on treating a monster as a racial type that can advanced more or less like a PC.
Maybe I'll need to wait for the DMG before passing judgment, but this strikes me as a real loss to the game, one of those things that made 3.5 a much more rational and "realistic" system than AD&D ever was. Does anyone have insight into the disposition of these very flexible rules in the 5th edition, or the rationale for removing them?
Thanks. Ken
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| #2NoctaemSep 30, 2014 18:03:39 | Mine is on its way right now to my place (amazon order) and the lack of templates is unfortunate. |
| #3ShiftkittySep 30, 2014 18:00:23 | In the mean time, why not cut the speed by 30%, worsen the AC by 2 or so, apply Undead Fortitude (my favorite monster feature of 5e!), apply any undead characteristics from the zombie, and hash out what a basic slam attack would be based on your choice of monster? Take away any spell-casting ability since whatever's animating it is just using the shell. |
| #4ShiftkittySep 30, 2014 18:11:40 | Let's see how this works, since I did that off the top of my head and only have the Starter Kit:
Undead Goblin AC 13 HP 7 (2d6) no need to change this, I think Speed 20 ft they just kind of shamble along, they're so cute! STR 8 (-1) DEX 6 (-2) CON 14(+2) INT 3 (-4) WIS 6 (-2) CHA 5 (-3) I mooched the Zombie stats a little, boosted CON because they're dead, there's not much that can mess with them health-wise but they're pretty durable for goblins, even dead ones No Skills Saving Throw Wis 0 Damage Immunities Poison Condition Immunities Poisoned Senses darkvision 60 ft, passive perception 8 Languages understands languages it knew in life but can't speak Challenge 1/4 (50XP) No need to change this. Yes, they're harder to put down in theory, but they're easier to hit.
Actions Slam Melee Weapon Attack +1 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit 1d6-1 (Heh, not really a "slam", is it?)
Does that work? |
| #5RCanineSep 30, 2014 18:44:14 | I think, by the authors' own admission, they're still figuring some of this stuff out, so I would expect more of this stuff like this in the future.
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| #6PsikerlordOct 01, 2014 0:17:45 | I believe monster crafting is in DMG, along with further templates. |
| #7SteveMNDOct 01, 2014 6:48:33 |
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| #8UthracOct 01, 2014 7:23:23 |
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| #9danycOct 01, 2014 7:41:26 | The number of templates in 3e, and the ways of advancing/enhancing monsters were great from a 'more neat stuff' perspective, but they were as complicated, unwieldy, and their math was prone to breaking as every other part of 3e (except as they were DM tools, they could result in accidentally creating badly CRed monsters that would kill a group). For instance, the zombie/skeleton rules technically capped CR (at I think 7 or 8, this is just off the top of my head) for original monsters above a certain number of HD. Which meant eventually you could have 30 HD dinosaurs as CR 8 zombies. The rules for adding levels to monsters were also somewhat notoriously bad, since it cost only very small amounts of CR to add tons of 'unassociated' levels to medium to high-ish HD monsters, effectively making them much more powerful.
So I'm glad they didn't go with a lot of highly complex formulas to do it. The way they present the two Dragon templates (as well as Half Dragon) is great, where it's just a few simple damage type swaps, new traits, immunities, or a new signature ability, not highly technical procedures for modifying stats. I agree zombie/skeleton ones would be handy since they're very common ones to see applied, but the basic thematics aren't hard to pull out: Undead Fortitude, -speed, -dex, drop int/wis/cha set very low. However, you can see looking at the printed zombies that they don't necessarily follow a formula. The ogre and human sort of do (it looks like they get +2 hit dice and some amount of con) but the beholder doesn't (it loses HP, along with the antimagic eye and a host of rays and legendary status) suggesting that animating highly magical and powerful creatures in such a crude way (as opposed to the 'proper' process for creating a Death Tyrant, whatever that is) might give you an inferior result. This is already an example of how the edition doesn't use a hard-fast rules approach to this kind of thing.
As for 'classed' monsters, I'm actually sort of glad they didnt waste space on it. If you want a monster with 'level x class y', you can do one of two things: you can just add the appropriate class features onto the monster without changing anything else (ie, give a Centaur Druid 5 spellcasting, or give an Ogre Barbarian rage), or you can actually literally add levels with all their features. If you take the 2nd approach, you have to make some decisions (does a Centaur Druid 5 have 6d10 of Centaur HD and 5d8 of Druid HD, or is it just 11d10 because centaurs are large and large creatures always have d10s?) and calculations (you need to decide the new creature's CR and modify it's proficiency bonus, I'd guess CR5 for our theoretical centaur after a quick survey of other creatures). I think the spirit of 5e is DRASTICALLY toward the former of these two methods than the latter (which is what 3e did), but neither way is wrong. |
| #10dmgorgonOct 01, 2014 7:48:01 | I'd rather not have the MM filled with templates. I'd rather have more monsters. Save that idea for MM3 or a template splat book.
In addition, templates created a real problem in 3e. It also made the game more complicated. I see no reason why you can't just use the Zombie entry for an undead goblin. |
| #11MechatarrasqueOct 01, 2014 10:07:30 | I would have put a celestial and fey template (and maybe an elemental one) in the MM (or even the PHB), to beef up conjure fey and conjure celestial.
That being said, I think putting the bulk of templates into the DMG is the right answer. They said the MM was bigger than they had intended, and I would prefer monsters to templates if they had to pick. If it takes longer than the DMG, that won't be cool, though.
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| #12UthracOct 01, 2014 10:16:13 | Splat books will be the key. I suspect the Elemental templates (and other elementally-support-goodness) will be available in mid-March. |
| #13BrianCritchleyOct 01, 2014 10:26:15 | the lack of ability to add classes to monsters I'll give WOTC a pass with this edition because it's also less IMPORTANT in 5th edition. with the proficinacy bonus you don't need to add 10 fighter levels to an orc just to make him capable of actually hitting a level 15 PC |
| (Reply to #13)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| (Reply to #14)Alficles |
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| #16DracoSuaveOct 02, 2014 10:07:56 | Adding classes doesn't seem too difficult tho--this might be in the DMG anyways. |