Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Coredump00 Jun 29, 2015 22:30:46	I think I understand how this works, but I can't find the rules to 'prove' it.  So any corrections or rules citations would be great.  I could not find any Dev tweets on the issue, so if those exist that would also be helpful.     When a Multiclass Monk6/ Druid2 shapechanges...   1) If the animal has a single attack (dire wolf), can the player take the Attack Action, and with Extra Attack get to Bite twice?   2) If the Animal has the option of Multi-attack (black bear), can the player take the attack action instead of the multi-attack,and thus attack twice with claw?   3) What rule says that a bear attacking with only natural weapons is not unarmed?  It doesn't have a weapon....  if a fist is not a weapon, why do we assume/insist that a claw is a weapon?     Thanks for the help guys.
#2 lawrencehoy Jun 30, 2015 0:02:14	I don't see a problem with either 1 or 2.   As for 3, where does it specify that so called natural weapons (which isn't an official term in 5th Edition) are considered weapons, rather than melee weapon attacks (like the unarmed strike)?
#3 Yunru Jun 30, 2015 3:18:53	I've posted it before, but the wording of Alter Form supports natural weapons being Unarmed Strikes. If you use Alter Form to give yourself natural weapons (not a imitation of, full blown natural weapons) you don't get a new weapon stats, instead it changes the amount and type of damage your unarmed strike does. Sure the argument's relying on a spell, but it's the only other instance of a PC getting natural weapons and their class features.
#4 Kalani Jun 30, 2015 7:00:04	1) If the animal has a single attack (dire wolf), can the player take the Attack Action, and with Extra Attack get to Bite twice?
#5 Noctaem Jun 30, 2015 7:13:02	I find your 3rd point surprising Kalani.  When should we expect the MM errata?
#6 Yunru Jun 30, 2015 8:14:55	I also find your fourth point lacking evidence Kalani, where does it state that creature natural weapons are different from Alter Form's natural weapons?
#7 Kalani Jun 30, 2015 8:18:12	Noctaem wrote:
#8 Kalani Jun 30, 2015 8:29:09	Yunru wrote:
#9 Yunru Jun 30, 2015 8:33:53	No it doesn't. As you say, specific beats general. Alter Form specifically says you get Natural Weapons. Not something that "simulates the chosen weapon". The fact that it changes your Unarmed Strike to match merely means it's one and the same thing. Even ignoring that, a bear is not "armed" with it's claws are they? So they're unarmed strikes. Long story short, everything indicates they're the same, nothing indicates otherwise.
#10 Mechatarrasque Jun 30, 2015 9:09:17	The Monster Manual errata was mentioned in the last Sage Advice:   Some monsters have resistance or immunity to damage from nonmagical weapons. How is that affected by the change to unarmed strikes in the PH errata? The change to unarmed strikes is related to a correction coming in the Monster Manual. As corrected, unarmed strikes aren’t weapons, but a character can use them to make melee weapon attacks. Such strikes aren’t meant to bypass a creature’s resistance or immunity to bludgeoning damage from nonmagical weapons. Here’s a simple fix to use until the Monster Manual errata is released: whenever a stat block refers to resistance or immunity to bludgeoning damage from nonmagical weapons, read that last part as “nonmagical weapon attacks.”
#11 Kalani Jun 30, 2015 10:45:13	I knew I read it somewhere.
#12 mellored Jun 30, 2015 11:45:21	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #12) MasterNamer	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #13) Yunru	MasterNamer wrote:
#15 Kalani Jun 30, 2015 12:36:06	MasterNamer wrote:
#16 Coredump00 Jun 30, 2015 15:38:51	While I agree AF is a notable source.  It is really hard to tell if mentioning Unarmed Strike is clarifying that Natural Weapons are Unarmed strikes, or if it is mentioned because it is a special case.     Currently a monk<11 gets to strike for D6 damage.  If he can WS into a bear, then at 3rd level (Druid2/Monk1) he can get 3 attacks a round for a 6D6+12 damage.    At 4th level, can start spending Ki to get 8D6+16 damage per round.  A plain 3rd level monk can get 3D4+9 damage; and 4D4+12 at 4th.  That seems to be a *huge* jump in potential damage.  I find it hard to believe that is how the rules are meant ot work.  At 3rd level, the druid/monk does more at will damage than a straight monk does at 20th level.  And from what I can tell, there is really no downside to staying in bear form.  All of the various monk features still work if the claw attack doesn't count as a weapon, and does count as an unarmed strike.
#17 Yunru Jun 30, 2015 15:57:27	Monks can use Monk weapons for all but their BAAs. There's also the issue of whether natural armour counts for cutting of their features. And there's the issue of surviving in beast-form more than say, a round.
#18 Kalani Jun 30, 2015 22:55:03	Natural armor is not Armor. It is yet another way of calculating your AC. This list includes all of the following:   Armor (10+Armor+Shield+Dex if Light/Med) Draconic Resilience/Mage Armor (13+Dex). These options do not forbid shield use but does not calculate it by default.  Natural Armor (10+Natural Armor+Dex) Unarmored Defense (10+Dex+Wis) - no Armor or shield allowed.  Unarmored Defense (10+Dex+Con+Shield) In fact, only the monks UD specifically prohibits shield use.
#19 lawrencehoy Jul 01, 2015 0:16:04	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #18) Coredump00	Kalani wrote: