A player in my group is having a Monk, and we are disagreeing about how off-hand damage works. Under martial arts, it says Monks can use Str or Dex for their attacks (see below). My player says he should get the dmg bonus on his Bonus off-hand "two-weapon" attack as well as his main Attack. I disagree'd saying off-hand two-weapon attacks fall under the rules for "two-weapon fighting", and you therefore don't get the dmg bonus on your off-hand attack.. Any one able to clear this up for us.. Thankyou 
M a r t i a l A r t s
At 1st level, your practice o f martial arts gives you mastery o f combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk w eapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only m onk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or w ielding a shield:
• You can use Dexterity instead o f Strength for the attack and damage rolls o f your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
Two-W e a p o n F ig h t in g
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability m odifier to the damage o f the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
Martial Arts is a specific rule which overrides the general rule of Two-Weapon Fighting.
Martial Arts says that you can use Dexterity or Strength from the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
So, the question becomes: is the monk using an unarmed strike or a monk weapon for the bonus attack from two-weapon fighting? If yes, then he gets to add that damage.
huh.. wasn't expecting that answer .. guess i'll have to eat crow on that one then /doh lol
For additional clarity - Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't enter into it at all. TWF only applies when you are wielding two one-handed weapons, wheras an unarmed strike is something you can do when you are weilding no weaopns (normally, if you are not a monk.) Besides which, even if you did consider unarmed strike to be a 'weapon' (because it appears on the weapons table) it doen't have the light property.
The bonus action you get from Martial Arts has nothing to do with the bonus action from TWF. They are completely separate abilities. You can make both attacks with the same fist (or foot, or tail or head... or whatever.) whearas Two Weapon Fighting requires two different light weapons.
So, to ammend the previous answer - it's not so much that Martial Arts 'overrides' TWF as much as it's something completely different and not related whatsoever. Calling it 'off hand damage' is a misnomer that created the confusion.
the monk in question is a 2nd-lvl wood elf with 20 dex.. so proficiency +2, dex +5 = +7 hit.. He smacks down with his Attack action using his staff 1d6+5 dmg; then uses his bonus monk action to "unarmed strike" 1d4+5...
If he uses his flurry of blows, from the way it is written, i am assuming the bonus action attacks can be only of the 'unarmed' variety.. 1d4+5 foy my 2nd lvl monk..?
F l u r r y o f B l o w s
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
P.S. Thanks for the assist
I came into this thread wanting to rant, rave, and argue and yet found that the question had already been answered properly and succinctly.
I leave this thread grossly disappointed with this pleasant, non-confrontational outcome.
lol @ Thank_Dog.
brettlangbdl wrote:
shivafang wrote:
A lot of people use non-point buy. I allow point buy or rolls. I fully expect someone to have a 20 starting stat as a result.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Sounds like someone needs to use the max base stat can't exceed 15 rule. But even if you let his 20 dex stand, he can't increase it beyond that so his chance to hit and damage now can only improve through magical items and increased proficiency bonus from levelling. Assuming you don't throw magic items at him like they're as common as water, balance should be restored eventually. Of course, his high dex doesn't really help in roleplay instances that require wisdom or int or strength... Since he's obviously min/maxed for combat, throw plenty of noncombat ability checks his way.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Dooflegna wrote:
Why is it important to you that everyone be equal?
Edit:
I don't engage in organized play, so I don't require point buys.
Beyond that, D&D isn't a competition. You're not trying to be the best character in the group. You're not trying to be more effective than anyone else. (Maybe a character has a flaw that says they're overly competitive, but players are there to work as a group to overcome obstacles.)
The longest campaign I was involved in had a character in it who had all 17's and 18's. She wasn't a more important or more effective part of the group than my character, whose stats were really only high in one area.
I've played with a character that had nothing higher than a 13, and an average of negative mods and still contributed.
Finally, how is it that you are convinced that the best dice rolls go to the most munchkiny players? If everyone rolls dice everyone has the exact same odds of getting better or worse scores. Logic dictates that every single player is equally likely to have an 18. Or six 18's.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Well, this thrad went on a sideways tangeant;
As a player, for me, it is about fairness. If I"m going to be playing a character for a week at a time over several months I'm going to be a little irked if someone in my table lucked out and rolled 2 18s (it can happen) while my highest stat is a 14. This fact alone is going to make me begrudge playing the campaign, and I may wind up losing interest as our 20, 19, 15, 14, 12, 12 (practically demi-god) outshines everyone.
(as for throwing encounters at the party that plays to the demi-god's weakness - myself and the players I play with are bored by most non-combat encounters, thus our DM doesn't use them very often.)
When rolling random stats it happens often (it's usually the same 2 players that get above average rolls - even when the rolls are being rolled in front of everyone.) and there's usually 2 players who consistently roll below-everage (these are also the same players that consistently miss with their attacks even when point buy is used - which makes me believe in dice karma.)
Thus, when I DM, I use point-buy so that my players are not in this situation due to RNG.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
The problem with rolled stats in 3.x+ is two-fold:
1. The stat bonus progression. In 3.x, you get a negative stat score 37% of the time with 3d6. That frickin sucks. In OD&D, you get a negative stat score 25% of the time. That's a massive massive difference.
2. The chance of dying at level 1 is much much lower compared to OD&D.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Dooflegna wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
+1 difference is hard to notice.
+2 difference is fairly noticable.
+3 is a clear advantage.
+4 is an overwhelming advantage.
+5 is a dominating advantage.
OoftaMeg wrote:
Is unarmed strike strictly speaking a melee weapon?
The Savage Attacker feat feet lets you reroll damage for a melee weapon and use the higher roll. If unarmed strike isn't a melee weapon then Savage Attacker can't apply to unarmed attacks. I think it should personally but I'm not sure. If unarmed strike is a melee weapon then a feat like Dual Wielder can also grant some benefit to Monk Martial Arts and I'm not sure how I feel about that. One of the Dual Wielder feat is that it grants a +1 AC bonus when wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. So if unarmed strike requires wielding your fist/foot as a melee weapon then you could gain the +1 AC even if you never actually use the two weapon bonus action.
While I'm asking about feats would Polearm Master's extra d4 attack level up with the Monk Martial Arts attack die? Whenever you use an attack action, Polearm Master lets you use a bonus action to to make an extra attack to deal d4 with the opposite end of your staff/spear. Monk Martial Arts says you can roll a d4 for your monk weapon and this increases as you level. So will Polearm Master's bonus attack deal 1d6 at level 5? Normally might not matter since you can just use an unarmed strike for the same damage but it might be useless if you have a particularly good magic staff.
shivafang wrote:
MisterGuyMan wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
MisterGuyMan wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
shivafang wrote:
I have become a diehard array supporter because I got tired of seeing some players roll horrible characters and others roll astounding characters. And then the players with the bad rolls either suck it up and play their best or get their character killed so they can roll again.
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
shivafang wrote:
I always just let players keep rolled scores if they're within a certain range. That way no-one's terribly UP or OP. If they're not within a certain range they reroll the highest/lowest.
Yunru wrote:
Because 18, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9 is different and leads to different builds than, say, 16, 16, 13, 10, 9, 8.
shivafang wrote:
I rolled a practice character to get myself used to doing it (chargen for my campaign is Monday) and got:
9 11 11 13 14 16
Which ended up:
9 -1
14 +2
14 +2
18 +4
11 0
11 0
(Forest Gnome Wizard)
It's roughly equivalent to a 28/29 spend depending on how you want to call point values above 15.
The fun part about the character is that he's an illusionist (has all illusion spells plus detect magic and identify, plus mage hand, prestidigtation, and fire bolt) and grew up as an urchin, so his actual skills include stealth, investigation, slight of hand, history, disguise kit, and thieves' tools. (And the dex to back those rogue-like skills up)
Anyway, on the stats front (I hadn't posted in a while) I tend to appreciate extremes which offer more opportunities for characters to wind up with plusses and minuses. I find that rolled stats usually give this experience better than point buys in the groups I've played with since point buys became more of a "thing" way back when. It also tends to mean you get a LOT more uneven stats.
Look at this for an array buy plus three points for forest gnome:
14, 14, 14, 13, 9, 8
8 -1
14 +2
14 +2
16 +3
14 +2
9 -1
So, really, bonus-wise the roll is identical to the point buy. The roll ends up better at casting. The buy ends up a bit grumpy, but with a better sense of their surroundings (passive perception isn't a bad thing to have, particuarly with a DM who ever uses party checks) ...
So, no "20" from the one character I rolled up, just a pretty average result with stat weighting you wouldn't otherwise have.
It's all personal preference. Arrays work just fine as well.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
The problem is with people choosing to do the random 4d6 drop lowest method and then choosing to dismiss "hopeless characters" or bad rolls. If you aren't willing to accept the risk of lower than average rolls, then why should you benefit from higher than average rolls? And the "random" method seems to yield a disproportionate amount of characters with 18-20 as an ability score. Given the probability of rolling an 18, it's hard to believe that it occured "randomly". More likely, someone fudged their math, completely lied about what they rolled, or just kept producing characters until they had the "random" scores they were happy with. None of these are possible with an array. And telling your players they have to use an array is a little more diplomatic than accusing them of cheating.
Bloodscythe wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
For the original poster:
- As a general rule, you always add your stat modifier damage to any physical attack you do. The *exceptions* are how the individual bonus actions are worded. Remember, you don't get a bonus action unless you have an ability that says you do. So in the case of two weapon fighting, the bonus action specifically states you don't add stat to the damage for that action. The Monk ability says nothing of the sort, so just default to the general ruling that you add stat to the damage of those unarmed attacks.
tldr: flurry of blows adds stat modifier to damage of all your attacks.
- Regarding the whole 4D6 rolling discussion (wow, hell of a tangent, guys) ... *officially*, it looks like WoTC has removed that as an option in the game, likely due to a desire for fairness or balance among the players. That being said, it's been used consistently in previous editions (was it an option in 4th, come to think of it?) and a lot of older players are comfortable with it. So if your DM is cool with it, go for it. But do not expect to be able to use that character in organized play.
KarlB wrote:
Oh! Yes, and it's page 13. But you're right ... I missed that part and stand corrected.
KarlB wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
[quote="CorwynnMaelstrom"]
Bloodscythe wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
[quote="shivafang"]
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
[quote="shivafang"]
Bloodscythe wrote:
Since that would make the feat completely pointless and non-scaleable, and worse than other feats of similar types (Duel Wielder, Crossbow Mastery, Great Weapon Master, etc) that interpretation does not ring true.
By that interpretation a monk would be better off saving a feat and using two daggers (or clubs or w/e)
[/quote]
Completely pointless and non-scaleable... for a monk. And it's not "completely" pointless. It does grant a slightly higher damage output potentially if the monk has a good magical quarterstaff. But the feat isn't for monks. Monks have martial arts which give them a bonus attack already. Other classes benefit from the feat more than a monk does. Just like a fighter doesn't benefit from the light armor feat, and only gets a minor bonus of 3 dex instead of 2 dex with the medium armor feat. Medium armor mastery isn't very good for fighters but there is a slight benefit. But then, light armor and medium armor feats aren't really for fighters are they? They're for the other classes who don't have armor proficiencies.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Since that would make the feat completely pointless and non-scaleable, and worse than other feats of similar types (Duel Wielder, Crossbow Mastery, Great Weapon Master, etc) that interpretation does not ring true.
By that interpretation a monk would be better off saving a feat and using two daggers (or clubs or w/e)
[/quote]
I'd also rule that monks only benefit from Dual Wielder if wielding a monk weapon in each hand. Unarmed strike, by defintion, is unarmed, meaning you do not have a weapon in your hand. And Dual Wielder, as written, says you only get +1 AC if wielding a separate weapon in each hand. Unarmed strike, though listed on the weapons table, is covered in the Melee Attacks section on page 195 as, unarmed, which is to say not having a weapon in your hand.
Bloodscythe wrote:
shivafang wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
I don't actually see a clash in the Quarterstaff Polearm Master/Martial Arts rules. Unless you're defining normal damage die differently to damage die.
The bonus attack is an attack with a Monk weapon that uses a d4 damage die. In fact it specifically states that the weapon's damage die is d4 rather the attack's.
Martial Arts lets you roll a different die in place of the normal damage die. Normal damage die for a quarterstaff using a polearm master butt strike is d4. Why couldn't you roll your martial arts die instead?
Specific only beats general when there is a direct clash. There is no direct clash: the RAW is not in opposition to itself.
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Seeing as there's little actual extra benefit to Polearm Master applying the monk damage die (because the monk could just use a bonus unarmed attack and the only plus is then any properties the quarterstaff being used has...and magic items are supposed to be rarer and less powerful than previous editions) it's approaching irrelevant what the rules say.
But that said, there's no real reason to believe that the martial arts die wouldn't be able to replace the damage die as usual. The damage die of a monk weapon is irrelevant to what the monk actually does with the weapon once the monk's martial arts die exceeds it. At 17th level a monk is hitting for d10 with a d4 dagger, a d6 shortsword, and a d8 spear. Die size isn't important: only the monk's die is.
Net win for the monk allowing Polearm Mastery is opportunity attacks on approach, and the chance to get one more weapon attack off. That costs a feat. As far as I am concerned that's fine with me. Anyone wanting to tax themselves that much just to be able to hit with a weapon one more time when they already have the ability to do an attack every turn can have whatever minor benefit their quarterstaff gives them...
Bloodscythe, people see in others what's inside themselves. The fact that you feel jealousy or the desire to cheat doesn't mean anyone else does. Please take your neurosis elsewhere. I tire of the prattle.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
[quote="CorwynnMaelstrom"]
[...] one character is likely made in some manner of cheating either from just lying about the rolls, forgetting to drop the lowest and adding all 4 dice together, or by rolling over and over and over until the desired stats are obtained.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Dooflegna wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Sorxores wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
shivafang wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote: