Help me understand this correctly. Lets say I am playing a level 5 half-orc monk. At level 4 rather then an ability point increase, I took the Weapon Master feat and choose greataxe, greatsword, maul, longbow (yes greatsword/maul does more damage but the half-orc racial is nice with the greataxe I'll have to calculate which is actually better later).
I enter combat wielding a two-handed greataxe and no armor. So I get my unarmored defense as I am not wearing an armor or a shield, but I do not have martial arts (as I am wielding a non-monk weapon). I take the Attack Action to attack twice with my greataxe, and then I spend a ki point on Flurry of Blows. Can I drop my Greataxe as a free action (not the one per turn limit as dropping is free) so that I am no longer wielding a non-monk weapon, and then as a bonus action make two unarmed attacks with martial arts, and then as my one per turn item interaction pick up my greataxe?
Does that all work out?
Gravity not being explicity stated in the rulebook prevents it from being RAW according to some people. Otherwise, yes, assuming you calculate damage as no weapons in hand as opposed to calculating it as when youwere armed. Order of operations seems to say yes.
I would allow it to work like that. People seem to be too caught up with thinking something is OP and wanting to disallow everything instead of actually saying "Yea of course it works. It works for my NPCs too. Hope you're prepared..."
If you're in a game where the DM doesn't allow it to work you can still get a lot of mileage out of it and will probably kill whatever you are fighting before it matters anyway.
Start out wielding greataxe
1. Make 2 attacks
2. Sheathe greataxe using item manipulation for your turn
3. Flurry of Blows
4. Next round draw greataxe
5. Make two attacks
The thing you are fighting better be dead after that 
Edit after reading next post: Yea all of this is moot if you assume Monks can make unarmed attacks while holding something in both hands.
I would argue that it didn't, not because of gravity not being RAW but because I would consider a character to be "wielding" any weapon that they have attacked with that round, even if they subsequently drop it.
Were that not the case, I'd argue that you don't even need to drop the axe, you merely need to declare that while your character is still *holding* the weapon they are no longer *wielding* it. Nothing suggests that a Monk cannot use Martial Arts while *carrying* a Greataxe.
As a DM I'd be inclined to rule one of two ways. Either to say that you are "wielding" the weapon if you attack with it in that round, or to just waive the restriction on using Martial Arts while wielding non-monk weapons (because seriously, how does holding an axe stop you kicking somebody). Allowing the same game mechanical effect but requiring you to go through the farcical process of dropping and retrieving your greataxe every damned round just seems silly.
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Hmmm ... honestly, I'm still really on the fence about the whole dropping weapon thing as a non-interaction by letting gravity take over. While I understand the idea behind it, you also have to take into consideration that you are not merely letting gravity take over here. If you are dropping your weapon, you actually want to aim it somewhat to a spot on the ground. If you *literally* just let go some ridiculously heavy and razor sharp two handed sword and let gravity take over, in mid swing, without minding HOW you are dropping it, you risk either accidentally throwing it if momentum has built up so that it would happen, or even possibly drop it, edge first, into your leg or foot, hurting yourself in the process. Hell, try it at home (away from fragile objects): grab a broom handle, swing it around widly, shuffle your feet around like you would in combat ... and just let go of it while still moving your body as if readying a stance to throw a punch. Don't think about it or judge as that's not just letting go. See where it lands. If it hits your leg or foot (which it will if you are not in mid swing and not paying attention to where you're dropping it), give yourself a die of damage. If you let go in mid swing and smacks the wall hard, consider the weapon thrown out of reach.
Now if you DO watch where you aim that weapon when you drop it on the ground, and hence targeting a spot where it won't cut you but still be within reach to pick up, that WOULD be an object interaction as it's comparable to both planting a flag in the ground or handing a weapon to another player.
Obviously, this is DM fiat. I'd say I'd try and find a middle ground. So,let's say, if a character insists on just letting gravity take over when he lets go of the weapon, I'd make it a 50/50 chance that something goes awry with that move, and randomly choose to either gash himself with his own blade or accidentally toss it out of reach.
Pick up a stick.
Hold it in front of you.
Open your hand and punch the air twice.
Scoop up the stick.
Do this 50 times, always dropping from the ready stance.
Tell us how many times you had to work very hard to recover the stick.
(I am betting it's less than the 50% you seem to be leaning towards.)
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Corwynn, yes, but that's not comparable to what the OP was describing. He's not holding his giant weapon in front of him in a calm meditative manner. He's swinging it twice, letting go, attacking two more times, and picking it up. In a 6 second span of time.
The better comparison would be:
Make sure you are shuffling your feet and weaving from side to side continously while you do all this:
- Swing your big heavy stick through the air in a quick violent manner as hard as you can. Do this twice in an aggressive manner indicative of fast paced combat.
- Let go of the big heavy stick *immediately* after your second swing. Don't look WHERE you are letting it go. Don't think about where you are letting it go as you are not placing it anywhere specific as would be indicative of a proper interaction. The idea here is that you are ONLY letting gravity and momentum take over and not aiming your arm to place it in a precise spot.
- Lash out with two punches. Do this right away and quickly. Remember, it's all within six seconds. You'll probably need to do so while your big heavy stick is still falling to the ground.
- Pick up your big heavy stick.
Do this 20 times and count how many times either A) you threw your big heavy stick away from you, or B) you hit yourself with your big heavy stick. I'm betting it'll be much more often than 50% of the time ;)
See, the whole object interaction bit is heroic fluff to allow players to do something they shouldn't normally be able to do that quickly. The game allows that particular fantasy conceit with the idea that your characters are heroes. But even heroes have limits to what they do, so handling an object with *precision* in the middle of high stress high speed combat is something even the game only allows once per turn. If you judge that someone *should* be able to both drop a weapon in a precise spot where he won't hurt himself AND pick it up back within the same round, so be it. You're the DM, it's your game. But please do understand that others might consider that that kind of action sequence is impossible or highly improbable, and it's perfectly acceptable for them to think so.
Looking up "Drop weapon" in the index says "See object: Interacting wtih" which points to the "Interact with objects" table.
While I, personally, am prone with 'drop weapon' being free - I think the rules seem to lean towards the side of 'dropping' being 'interact with objects'. Which means there is no difference between dropping a weapon and sheathing it.
shivafang wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
KarlB wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Ok well if it does take my one object interation to drop the weapon, then I just attack twice, drop/sheath the weapon, and punch twice. Next round, unarmed attack twice and then martial arts attack and finish by pick up up the greataxe (and repeat from the begining). That or give up the martial arts extra dice damage on the second turn and pick up the weapon before attacking (and if you use ki to do flurry of blows I think you still get 2 attacks of 1+str mod damage even when wielding a heavy weapon).. Still can use a 1d12 or 2d6 weapon half the time which is nice (esp for a half orc).
That works, obsid.
(As for the rest, I'm not going to force people to burn item interaction to drop items, personally. That's ridiculous.)
Careful with that approach though. Even orcs are smart enough to kick away a weapon dropped on the ground. Well, unless they're excessively paranoid and think you dropped it on the ground specifically so they would kick it ;)
obsid wrote:
shivafang wrote:
This is correct. I thought he was trying to attack with the greataxe after making the flurry, but re-reading it now I clearly misread it (it's late, I'm tired.)
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
No worries. It wasn't written out exceedingly clearly. I added the breakdown so everyone could see how it worked a bit better. It's kind of a cool concept, honestly.
I think that I'd probably rule that if you attacked with the weapon, you count as having wielded it for the round. I wouldn't say that dropping it is required, as just carrying it would not cancel Martial Arts.
In game this would simply be a case of knowing how to use the weapon skillfully, but it not being integrated into your unarmed style as a Monk weapon would be to allow you to attack simultaneously with feet/fists etc.
Seems to cover the intent, without breaking the RAW. I'm sure that down the road, there will be feats or abilities increasing the range of Monk weapons or allowing you to designate weapons as usable with Martial Arts Monk class feature.
I dont think I'd allow this to work. Feels highly against RAI to me, even if flurry does not specifically prohibit it, I see flurry as an extension of martial arts, and martial arts doesnt work with a non-monk weapon.
I have no problem with it because the Monk has to expend resources to do this and he still has to swap weapons to use a decent-sized damage die when using Flurry.
Fighters can swap weapons during an Extra Attack or Action Surge, so I don't have problems with a Monk swapping weapons to use Flurry of Blows.
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
- Attack (2 attacks) with Greataxe
- Flurry of Blows (2 attacks) with knees/feet/elbows/head.
Does it explicitly state anywhere that an unarmed attack has to be made with your fists? If were talking anything other than a monk here, sure, but a very big part of martial arts is the ability to strike with other parts of your body. Muay Thai's 8-point philosophy, for instance. I could easily see a greataxe swing being followed up by a quick knee -> step -> elbow lift, all in one graceful motion. I'd hardly say it's a balance issue, too. Is it really phrased that unarmed attacks are fists period?
but it seems grounded in an irritatingly narrow interpretation of what "martial arts" means. Why, after all, *couldn't* a half-orc Monk develop a style which incorporated a two-handed axe?
Seraphex wrote:
Just to clarify for everyone, if unarmed strike can be performed by a monk with his hands full then it must be possible for every other class to do so as well. There is nothing in the rules that suggests this is a Monk only thing, or even that it is or isn't a thing for that matter. To those that agree that a Monk can attack unarmed with their hands full, do you agree that all other classes can do so as well?
reddaemon wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
seems that the for unarmed damage to work "Monk only" weapons can be just waved off
reddaemon wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
So why not chop with axe, chop with axe, knee to groin, head butt?
reddaemon wrote:
By RAW, obsid's series (which I detailed earlier) works out. If people want to change how things work to better illustrate how they feel things should work for monks, fighters, or anyone else, that's good fodder for houserules. Personally I'm inclined to let anyone TWF with unarmed attacks. (Wow, a whopping 2 attacks for d1+str/d1...) ;)
Captain_Kobold wrote:
If you want a character with a "Martial Arts Weapon Style" that uses a greataxe, make a fighter or paladin and take the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style.
It's a style that is built around attacking with a two-handed weapon and increasing the force of your strikes with that weapon.
And you can wear heavy armor and still gain the benefits.
obsid wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
What's the "dictionary definition" you are using for "wield"?
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
I will consider any alternative definition from a reliable source (any from this page, for example) if you feel it better to use one of those. But my functional definition of wielding requires that an item be held.
shivafang wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Paperdoll logic 101:
If it is in your hand(s) slot, it is wielded.
If it isn't, it's not.
Wield in gear logic is a matter of where the item is, not what you're doing with it.
***
But hey, lets look balance. I'll be generous and give HOrc a +4 Str. He'll be sacrificing a lot of monkeyness to get there, dumping int/cha and quite probably burying his health. This build is MAD.
6.5+4 * 2 = 21 (greataxe)
3.5+4 *2 = 15 (flurry)
36 in round 1 (adding one damage die on criticals, which works out to something so tiny I'll be generous say 37)
3.5+4*3 = 22.5 (attack plus martial arts)
23 damage in round 2 (again, we'll be generous and round up because of crit damage dice rolls)
59 points.
***
Monk with (probably 3 points) better AC and 5 to 10 more HP (Horc won't have as much dex/wis/con) is a Wood Elf who can at 5th have a +4 damage stat as well.
4.5+4 * 2 = 17 (UNICORN STYLE! ... spear)
3.5+4 * 2 = 15 (flurry)
32 in round one
4.5+4 * 2 = 17 (he still has his weapon out)
3.5+4 = 7.5 (martial arts)
24 in round 2. (rounded down here)
56 points.
***
You go MAD, lose AC, have to hard dump on your stats (meaning the elf may very well have more HP...) and gain 3 points of average damage per two-round cycle.
You can spike harder (a crit is a pretty nice thing with that HOrc...but a 20 is still a 20, so you're going to see less than one crit per fight) of course, but only in uneven numbered rounds.
Yup. Much better ways to get damage out of a great axe than to mess around with martial arts. If a player tried to do this at my table my first question would be "Why are you trying to do this, what are you trying to achieve?" and see if there isn't a better way.
So, what I am saying is this: it's a sub-optimal build which squeezes a bit more damage out of a monk than you'd otherwise see, but it sacrifices more than a little survivability (going to need that relentless endurance) in order to do it. At mid level (11th) it becomes pretty much a wash, and continuing to use it at 17 plus is a clear loss of average (but not spike) damage.
If a player at my table wanted to do this, I'd be fine with it. It's not game-breaking. It is a flavorful version of a martial artist. (D&D monks are really very limited in what weapons they use...real world martial arts use so many more weapons: including axes.)
He's trying to achieve playing a half orc monk with racial flair. I suspect you haven't seen his other thread.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Sneak attack is about precision strikes. That's why it has the restrictions it has. If someone wants to houserule in a feat that allows sneak attack with other weapons (greataxe surgeon?) it'd probably not be horribly unbalancing (the beauty of sneak attack being all the extra sneak attack dice, and not the weapon dice...)
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
RAW says: "Immedately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action."
This is part of the Ki class feature, not the Martial Arts class feature, so the prerequisites for Martial Arts do not apply.
jonathonhawke wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
jonathonhawke wrote:
I am just picturing all the video games and anima where a character tosses a melee weapon up in the air unleashes a flurry of unarmed strikes and then catches the weapon again.