Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 AlistairOvid Aug 08, 2014 10:46:46	Hello Everyone,   We've picked up 5e in my gaming group after playing 4e since it came out. I am DMing and I was wondering about a particular mechanic and if any other DMs have encountered issues with it. This is the mechanic that allows you to perform an action in the middle of a move. My issue is that the ranged rogue in the group has been starting his turn outside of the doorway, moving into the doorway to shoot, and then moving back outside of the doorway to avoid any future attacks. I, as the DM, and some members of the group think this is a "cheap mechanic", but we haven't singled out the person for doing it as we can all do it as well (including myself). I know I can technically have the NPCs ready and action along the lines of "when Rogue is in sight, NPCs will fire their arrows at him" but I don't think this solves the issue. I know the mechanic is realist, I am just not sure there is enough realism in the rest of the game to make the "move, shoot, move" smooth with the rules.   I was wondering if anyone else has encountered this sort of tactic and what their impression and response has been.
#2 Proletheus Aug 08, 2014 11:05:30	It's a legitimate and legal tactic. Why shouldn't the monsters just move through the doorway and stab him in his face?
#3 tallric_kruush Aug 08, 2014 11:14:29	His tactics are perfectly legitimate. He's employing very real to life tactics, at that.   A ranged rogue often employed similar tactics in 4E. If I recall correctly, one of the rogue's at-wills allowed this very thing. I'm not sure why it seems so "cheap" to your group. I guess no one played their rogue in this fashion before, at your table.   Rather than being miffed with the rogue player, I'd encourage everyone else to adjust their views. This is a normal, common tactic. It's just one you've apparently not encountered in your games until now.   As to how to handle it tactically, you will need to have enemies close on his location. It's going to play out pretty true to life, really. If they can't get to him due to terrain and/or melee support from his companions, that's a win for Team Hero. Their smart tactics are working, winning battles.
#4 AlistairOvid Aug 08, 2014 11:54:13	Thank you for the replies. We are hardly miffed at the rogue. As I alluded to, we have not prevented him from doing so because we all can. Even though rogue thinks it is "kind of cheap" but we still allow it because there are other ways to prevent it and any of us can employ. I was not asking about its legitimacy, as the rules are fairly explicit in this regard, I was asking what the opinions of the board were and if anyone has encountered similar situations (which apparently you have). D&D 4e was different in that, based on my understanding of the rules, you had to complete one action before beginning another (movement, standard, minor; standard, movement, minor; etc.) unless you had a power that allowed you to do otherwise (the Rogue's "deft strike"). So, this is a fairly new mechanic for the group and we are just getting used to it.   Again, thank you for the replies and I will relay this information to the gaming group.
(Reply to #4) Overpromises	Basic page 70 says:   “Breaking Up Your Move You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet. Moving between Attacks If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.”   The attack is completely 100% legitimate.   Possible countermeasures include readying attacks, moving through the door, retreating farther, using caltrops or ball bearings or spells to impede the rogue’s movement, darkness, magical darkness, fog, and probably many others.
#6 mellored Aug 08, 2014 12:26:03	Rogues are supposed to take "cheap shots".   If you want someone to stand up and face you head on, be a fighter.
#7 Danny_Montanny Aug 08, 2014 12:40:38	mellored wrote:
#8 Thank_Dog Aug 08, 2014 15:12:46	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#9 Paraxis Aug 08, 2014 15:20:59	Don't forget that he can also take his bonus action to hide once he is done with his move, shoot, move.  Then if something does come through the door to stab him it most likely won't even see him, if it does the rogue just uses his bonus action to disengage on his turn and move, shoot, move to another place.   Rogue archers are great, that is my current character in fact.
#10 mrpopstar Aug 08, 2014 15:57:06	Thank_Dog wrote:
#11 JRutterbush Aug 08, 2014 15:57:59	Yes, it is a "cheap move"... which is why the Rogue is using it. That's the whole point: fighting fair is stupid. Everybody should be using any method at their disposal to not die in combat, and this is one of those methods. If they're fighting enemies that have any tactical sense, they'll have their own ways of countering it anyway.
#12 jaelis Aug 08, 2014 20:13:26	In 4e they called it Deft Strike.
#13 E-Tallitnics Aug 08, 2014 21:17:48	mrpopstar wrote:
#14 Psikerlord Aug 09, 2014 0:58:32	The remedy is ready action, or go round the corner and hit him/shoot him back. I agree its a tactic we have to get used to in 5e. Havent decided if its a fun tactic yet or not. When the rogue snipes and hides, it can sometimes leave the remainder of the party to be focus fired, which might annoy other players....
#15 Dane_McArdy Aug 09, 2014 6:08:46	I suggest developing encounters where there is no door to hide behind, that forces the rogue more into the open. It sounds like the encounters are typical, open door, square room, fight encounters.   Mix it up. Add elements that obstruct the rogues view.
#16 Tundish Aug 09, 2014 7:05:22	Since he is jumping out, picking a target, firing and moving again give the attack disadvantage.  If he does not want disadvantage  then say that he has to keep poking his head around the corner to pick a target to shoot so would only get the AC bonus from cover instead of fully blocked in of sight.
#17 Psikerlord Aug 09, 2014 16:39:22	On reflection the doorway move and snipe tactic does not give adv. Why? Bec when you move out of cover you are no longer unseen and so dont get adv. This is true even if he just pokes his head out, etc. Once in combat, foes are on the lookout for him at the doorway, and he would become unseen the moment he pokes his head out or moves out to shoot. I can see this tactic working at the start of an ambush, per the hiding rules, he could make a hide check in that instance and stay hidden as he exits cover against distracted foes (by moving or poking out), and keep unseen status, and get his adv.   But once combat is underway, it doesnt work, bec foes know he is peek a boo sniping and keep an eye on that area. If you could get the unseen adv bonus just by going around a corner and blocking los, then popping out to shoot, any creature could do this without a hide check..... which would be very lame indeed.
#18 jaelis Aug 09, 2014 17:04:20	Psikerlord wrote:
(Reply to #18) AaronOfBarbaria	jaelis wrote:
#20 jaelis Aug 10, 2014 3:44:24	I think that is consistent with my take. Well of course, you might be invisible or in the dark. But if you are hiding behind cover and have to move such that you no longer have any cover, then you probably had to really move.   I think that in most cases like this, I would judge that the target would have cover from you as well.
#21 2Chlorobutanal Aug 10, 2014 17:22:36	For those who enjoy playing combat encounters on a grid, it's generally possible to stay in cover and attack without the target gaining cover.  This depends on how 5E implements grid or mat-based combat, but usually if the ranged attacker is directly behind an obstacle, they can fire at a target in the open without cover penalties while maintaining 'cover' from the target themselves.  This in some games, including D&D in the past, has meant that it is in fact possible to fire upon somebody from cover and thus possibly be hidden while firing.    For an historical example: consider arrow slits.  These were designed to provide excellent cover to archers without seriously inconveniencing their ability to fire upon distant attackers in the open.  I would say that an archer behind an arrow slit has 3/4 cover and can try to hide from those outside the building.  If the archer steps (or leans or turns) into the slit and fires, it should be pretty easy to then step away, gaining total cover, as part of the same action.  I think that the person outside the wall or building would have an extremely hard time guessing when the attacks would come.
#22 Noon Aug 10, 2014 21:31:59	Dane_McArdy wrote:
#23 Spor Aug 11, 2014 6:32:32	Next encounter, ensure you describe how rotten and damp the masonry is in the place. Then when the rogue makes  ashot and hides behind a wall, have a large strong brute smash through the wall.
#24 MrHotter Aug 11, 2014 8:48:48	Also remember that when he ducks out of the room he no longer knows what's going on in the room. The people in the room are hidden from him as well. You should have someone move to the edge of the door and wait for him to poke his head out and let him hit with advantage.    I'd be tempted to give your player disadvantage on his shots because he has no idea where his target is before he moves to the doorway so he'd be firing blind.      The Phandelver adventure had one point where they had two goblins sharing one arrow slit by using the move/shoot/move strategy. It just seemed odd to me since if you are firing at people moving towards your castle you don't really want to lose sight of them when you should just be reloading as fast as you can.    If we go by just RAW we could have 15 goblins sharing a single arrow slit or murder hole per 6 second round if we wanted. The only limit on numbers would be from not allowing creatures to stop moving in a square occupied by an ally.
#25 smbakeresq Aug 11, 2014 10:31:36	Psikerlord wrote:
#26 Alynn Aug 11, 2014 10:37:58	All is fair in love in war. From a "Living Person" standpoint, if I can jump in and out of a doorway and not have anyone able to shoot anything back at me, that is what I will do. The rules support this, and I say go for it. It's not like every fight ever will have a doorway for them to use. Not every enemy will allow it to happen more than once before doing something to counter it. Like detonating a fireball on the other side of the doorway.   In this more deadly than it used to be game, this is how I feel more players should play, especially lightly armored types.
#27 Jbickley00 Aug 12, 2014 9:48:45	In the open, a mounted archer can use move-shoot-move to devastating effect by shooting and moving outside the opponents charge range.
(Reply to #19) Uchawi	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#29 Noon Aug 12, 2014 20:09:45	MrHotter wrote:
#30 Psikerlord Aug 13, 2014 1:21:39	Noon wrote: