| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1AndrewJOMay 06, 2015 15:04:49 | Divine Smite says you can expend one paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage to a foe. If I multiclass as a caster and gain more spell slots, can I use those to cast Divine Smite? Thanks for the help guys ![]() |
| #2jonathonhawkeMay 06, 2015 15:10:27 | Yes you can. Spell slots are spell slots. |
| #3shivafangMay 06, 2015 15:18:05 | This will be up to your DM. The rule specifically says "Paladin Spell Slot" (and it is the only time in the entire book where it calls out slots by a specific class).
While Jeremy Crawford has clarifiied in a tweet that any spell slot can be used to smite (such as Warlock slots) I believe this breaks the balance intended by the specific exception in the book, as a Bard with 2 levels of Paladin will always smite better and more often than a pure Paladin (8th level Paladin - 2d8 Smites. 6 Bard/2 Palladin - 5d8 Smites - huge difference). as well as having almost full spell progression and access to whatever Paladin-only spells they want (or any class's really) thanks to their specific features.
Thus, until it actually goes into a FAQ or an Errata - at my table Jeremy Crawford is wrong on this issue and we go by the Rule As Written. His off-the-cuff tweet was clearly made without looking at the rule and considering why it was written the way it was. |
| (Reply to #3)AndrewJO |
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| #5shivafangMay 06, 2015 15:27:10 |
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| (Reply to #5)ArialBlack |
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| #7melloredMay 07, 2015 7:57:52 |
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| #8jaelisMay 07, 2015 8:03:39 | I kind of agree with Arial here. The paladin smites seem pretty well balanced with a spell of the equivalent level. So if the Bard 6/Pal 2 has a choice to cast a real level 3 spell or to use a "level 3" smite, that doesn't seem like a balance problem. Is it that you think a level 3 smite actually is significantly better than a level 3 bard spell?
But I guess the real issue is that the bard/pally can smite better than a straight pally, because the bard gives more spell slots. I can see why that seems kind of weird. But I guess if the bard/pal does that regularly then they cast spells much worse than a straight bard, and also do all the other paladin things much worse than a straight paladin. So it basically lets a character hyperfocus on that one aspect of the class if they want, but since I don't think that aspect is particularly overpowered, I don't think it is a problem.
/pretty much what mello said
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| #9CraggleRockMay 07, 2015 8:05:28 | A 4th level slot could potentially be used for a Blight spell (8d8, although half on a save), or 6d8 from Chromatic Orb, or an area of 2d8+4d6 (half on save) with Ice Storm, or 4d8 in an aura with Spirit Guardians, so I'm not sure 5d8 smites against a single target (which is where it caps out) is too much of a concern for the same slot. |
| #10melloredMay 07, 2015 8:10:41 | And just to compair smite to a spell...
magic missile = 3d6 + 1d6 per level (effectivly), 100' and possibly split between targets. vs smite = weapon + 2d6 + 1d6 per level, melee. |
| #11AndrewJOMay 07, 2015 8:32:25 | I wasn't asking, or worried, about balance. Just the way it was written seemed odd. Divine Smite is already capped at 5d8 damage, so it's not like it can be super charged by taking a caster class. |
| #12reddaemonMay 07, 2015 10:29:13 | The issue you run into is how do you separate which class all your spell slots belong to? If you are a Wizard 3/Paladin 6, you don't have 4 level 1 Wizard spell slots and 4 level 1 Paladin spell slots. You just have 4 level 1 spell slots. The same character has level 3 spell slots. Which class do those spell slots belong to? Wizard? Paladin? Neither? All these questions go away if you just disregard what class spell slots are coming from. Besides, at level 11 Paladins get Improved Divine Smite and eventually can smite harder than a multiclass Paladin. Not to mention they basically get a half smite for free every attack. |
| #13QwertyAzertyMay 07, 2015 12:31:28 |
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| #14IllithidbixMay 08, 2015 12:04:44 |
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| #15Tempest_StormwindMay 08, 2015 12:22:56 | Everything in a multiclass build is as if the classes were taken in isolation, except for the specific exceptions, including the level of your spell slots.
Divine Smite doesn't give damage on its own; it converts a spell slot into damage. The level of the slot provides the value.
So, yes, a multiclass Pal 2 / Bard X will have more frequent smites and possibly higher-level smites than a straight paladin 20.
...as long as you're only looking at Divine Smite.
The paladin spell list contains several a-priori smites that pair together well with Divine Smite (Divine Smite, triggered after you see if you hit, is a post-hoc smite). Pal2 / Bard X will only have two of them (Searing and Thundering), and won't have the more sophisticated ones (which can often do much more than damage, locking a target out of the fight for a while or punishing foes who would seek to fight unfairly). Furthermore, the other class' lists weren't designed to handle the smites - for instance, although they're not long-term buffs, the Smite spells still require Concentration. Pal 2 / Bard X whose concentration slot is spoken for is going to have problems - either he leaves it free for Smiting, in which case he's leaving out the good buffs and enchantments he's expected to bring as a bard in favor of only being able to smite, or he focuses on those buffs and enchantments, and winds up only having Divine Smite.
And vis-a-vis that Divine Smite, as levels increase, a paladin will pick up Improved Divine Smite (which is effectively increasing all his spell levels by 1 when he smites, and giving him some baseline effect that doesn't cost a spell slot) and a host of other spells which aid in its delivery, none of which show up on the bard.
And all this sets aside how paladin and valor bard are natural thematic links - call their mixture a marshal or warlord. I'd be fine giving smites to that. I'd not look twice if I saw a few bard levels in a paladin build. Why should I look twice when I see the reverse?
Show For what it's worth, the build I'm having the most fun working on right now is a multiclass paladin exploiting something similar - Warlock (Archfey, Tome) 3 / Paladin (Ancients) 9 / Warlock X. The warlock spell slots provide a short-rest-recharge smite at decent levels while the paladin levels provide increased access to paladin utility spells and lower-level slots to fire off basic warlock spell effects without wasting a high-level pact magic slot. (That's actually a secondary mechanical aspect to the build, which employs Agonizing Blast and the tome pact's Shilleglagh to use Charisma both in melee and at range, which also governs the strength of the Aura of Protection and the DCs of both class' spells. And neither of these factor into its RP (which practically writes itself, since feylocks and ancients paladins dovetail narratively pretty well.)
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| #16HorwathMay 10, 2015 10:17:38 | Also paladin smites are restricted to +5d8 damage from spell slots.
that means you can only burn 4th level slot for your +5d8 damage. you could burn 6th level slot but you would only gain +5d8 bonus damage.
So this is multiclass balance. |
| #17cowleymenMay 12, 2015 0:27:04 |
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| (Reply to #17)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #19melloredMay 12, 2015 5:13:52 |
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| #20Patron1972May 12, 2015 9:24:47 |
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| (Reply to #20)MasterNamer |
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