Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OfficerRando Dec 22, 2014 21:01:52	I have a hypothetical situation that I can't quite wrap my head around, and was wonding what the genreal consensus was.   Say I have a charcter that is a Bard 4/Wizard 1 - INT 16 for purposes for this question.   According to the chart on page 165 of the PHB, this character has four 1st level spell slots, three 2nd level spell slots, and 2 third level spell slots.    When preparing Wizard spells, page 114 of the PHB tells me: "You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available  for you to cast. To do so. choose a number of wizard  spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence  modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The  spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."   Okay, great. So, this character can prepare 4 Wizard spells (INT 16+one level in Wizard)   Page 165, concerning multiclass characters tells me: "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class  individually, as if you were a single-classed m em ber of  that class. If you are a ranger 4/w izard 3, for example,  you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your  levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know  three w izard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten  wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when  you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level  spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six  wizard spells from your spellbook."   Okay, I can follow. Since this character is a level one Wizard, she can only prepare two 1st level Wizard spells in addition to her Bard spellcasting.    Through adventuring, this character finds a scroll of Phantom Steed, a 3rd level Wizard spell.   She decides that she wants to copy this spell into her spell book. Looking at page 114 of the PHB in the "Your Spellbook sidebar, it says: Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell  of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is  of a level for which you have spell slots and if you can spare  the time to decipher and copy it.   Well, Phantom Steed is definitely a Wizard spell, so that checks out. And this character has 3rd level spell slots, so that checks out too, since the sidebar on page 114 of the PHB says nothing about "Wizard Spell Slots" just spell slots.   It appears that, with the time and gold investment, this character should be able to copy this spell into her spellbook.    Because of the text on page 165 about preparing spells as a multiclass character, this character cannot prepare a spell of 2nd level or higher, but the text on page 114 of the PHB about spells with the ritual tag state: You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has  the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook.  You don't need to have the spell prepared.   Since spells with the ritual tag do not need to be prepared, only present in the spellbook, it appears to me that this character would be able to cast Phantom Steed, or any Wizard ritual she has copied in her spellbook, as long as she has the spell slots for it from her overall character level.    Has there ever been a ruling via Twitter on this situation? Or is this another "do whatever you want" type of answer?
#2 Novacat Dec 22, 2014 22:20:34	The general concensus, although it is not spelled out explicitly in the PHB, is that Wizards cannot copy a spell into their spellbooks unless it is a spell they could learn normally (i.e., that method of learning spells is subject to the same restrictions as learning them by leveling up).   Feel free to make a case to your DM about it. I'm on the fence, myself. Just be aware that the community in general does not support your interpretation.
(Reply to #2) Ashrym	Novacat wrote:
#4 EzechielDantan Dec 23, 2014 2:52:57	I dont really think it is the intent but i see little harm in it.
#5 mellored Dec 23, 2014 5:45:53	It seems RAW, if not neccicaraly intentional.   I don't see anything multi-class restricting about putting spells in your spell book, only preparing them from your spell book.
#6 Ashrym Dec 23, 2014 11:32:00	Right. I can see an argument that it's not intended but it looks RAW and doesn't hurt anything. It does give value to wizard splashes that don't really have a lot of value compared to several other classes otherwise.
#7 mellored Dec 23, 2014 11:34:58	Ashrym wrote:
#8 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jan 05, 2015 11:23:12	Ashrym wrote:
#9 Stormborn20 Jan 05, 2015 11:33:18	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#10 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jan 05, 2015 13:39:16	Stormborn20 wrote:
#11 Ganymede425 Jan 05, 2015 17:43:19	"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."   This.   Copying a spell into a spellbook is an adjunct of the rule above; this means that we determine if a wizard can add a spell into his spellbook by pretending the multiclassed wizard is a single-classed wizard. The mistake made by many here is applying the spell slots determined from the second section, Spell Slots, in determining whether a wizard is able to record a spell in his spellbook (i.e. whether the wizard knows the spell). That is explicitly incorrect, as factoring in the multiclass spell slots is axiomatically not determining spells known as if the wizard was "a single-classed member of that class." No, it is instead determining spells known as if the wizard was multiclassed.   In short, if there is any difference whatsoever between your wizard spells known for a Wiz 1 and a Wiz1/Brd 4, you did something wrong.
#12 Stormborn20 Jan 05, 2015 18:45:55	Ganymede425 wrote:
#13 Ganymede425 Jan 05, 2015 19:37:31	Stormborn20 wrote:
#14 Stormborn20 Jan 05, 2015 19:57:05	Ganymede425 wrote:
(Reply to #14) Ganymede425	Stormborn20 wrote:
#16 Stormborn20 Jan 05, 2015 20:24:08	Ganymede425 wrote:
#17 Ganymede425 Jan 05, 2015 20:30:13	Stormborn20 wrote:
#18 Stormborn20 Jan 05, 2015 20:58:05	Ah, is that the misunderstanding then?  Wizards don't have "known spells", apart from cantrips.  When the PHB discusses known spells, they are referring to classes like Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Ranger, Arcane Trickster, and Eldritch Knight.  The remaining caster classes -- Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and Wizard -- instead prepare their spells.  Merely adding spells to a spellbook, ritual book, or book of shadows is neither knowing nor preparing.
(Reply to #18) Ganymede425	Stormborn20 wrote:
#20 Stormborn20 Jan 05, 2015 21:12:24	Where does it list them as spells known? Are referring to the ranger 4/wizard 3 example?  In that example, they never say that the spells in the spellbook are known spells.  On the contrary, they form the list from which your prepare spells. Hell, if they were known spells you wouldn't need to lug your book around or prepare them. Also note the example does not include spells copied from scrolls.  They arrive at the number of spells, ten, by taking your six spells at 1st level and adding on two more at bofh 2nd level and 3rd level.  These selections are restricted by your wizard level, as we've already agreed.
#21 Ganymede425 Jan 05, 2015 21:22:09	Stormborn20 wrote:
#22 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jan 06, 2015 5:57:36	Ganymede425 wrote: