Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 IsaacZephyr Sep 18, 2015 6:46:17	Alright, here's a bit of a tricky question I've been struggling with. It feels like it has an obvious answer but alas, finding the specifics on it has proven difficult with the index jumping you around the PHB all the time, and a few loops with no end.   So the question is to do with hands and spellcasting. It could also be a concern for a wizard, sorcerer, druid, but the main classes I think this effects are Paladins and Bards. The problem being, their hands and spellcasting. From what spells state, they have verbal, somatic and material components (V,S,M) verbal you need a voice, somatic you need your hands, and material you need material X which may or may not have gold cost which can also be replaced with a spellcasting focus.   For a paladin, it doesn't seem as big a deal, the holy symbol can be emblazoned on armor or a shield and still counts. So my particular paladin uses a two-handed sword. It's simple to remove one hand for the somatic components and put it back on the sword but one with a shield and sword? They wouldn't have the hands for somatic components, which feels like it defeats the purpose. Bards seem to have this problem worse, that being they can use instruments as a spellcasting focus. Given their fluff text, Bards weave magic from music, so it would imply they should be playing their instrument if a material component is required, but looking through the PHB, all the example instruments need two hands to play. Add that Bards can take the path of the College of Valor at third level, which starts setting them up to use weapon attacks and spells at the same time, they can't hold their focus, a weapon, AND do the somatic components for spells. So the two classes that are supposed to be that middle road, can do both, can't really seem to do both without specific setup.   Now I have taken a look at the spell lists for both classes, seeing as I've been playing them both, and looking at it, the majority of the spells they get don't use material components, so the best I can fathom is it's intended this way? So Bards on the college of valor can't cast the most devistating spells while attacking cause they don't have the hands for it, and hyper defensive paladins with shields have to be choosy about their spells as well, but there are a lot of low level spells like Bane that use material components and would be the ideal for either class.   The rules for a component pouch seem to be that you can draw the materials from the pouch and do somatic components with the same hand as a possible workaround to it, but Paladins still need their holy symbol for other reasons so it's like a band aid and not really an answer to the question at hand. That being, taking everything into consideration, what are the unwritten restrictions in place for Paladins and Bards to be a physical presence and a spell presence, or do you basically have to pick being a second rate Cleric/Fighter/Rogue when you choose either of these classes?
#2 Danny_Montanny Sep 18, 2015 7:02:46	War Caster.   Nothing says that a Bard has to be playing their instrument to use it as a spellcasting focus, just that they must have a hand free to access it.   The mechanics are give and take, not just give. If you want to be able to hold a shield, wield a sword, and cast spells at the same time you're gonna have a tough go at doing all 3 in the same turn. The two classes that can get away with it are Clerics and Paladins because their shields can be their spellcasting focus. Though they are still limited on spells that have the S tag but don't have the M tag without War Caster.
#3 Quad_Hund Sep 18, 2015 11:52:55	http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/26/holy-symbol-replace-somatic-components/ http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/30/2-weapon-casting/
(Reply to #2) IsaacZephyr	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #4) Danny_Montanny	IsaacZephyr wrote:
#6 WorBlade Sep 23, 2015 23:04:58	If you assume that a bard playing an instrument is performing the required hand motions by playing the correct notes, then it seems like most of your problem is solved.
#7 Chaosmancer Sep 24, 2015 4:00:56	Quad_Hund wrote:
#8 Macv12 Sep 24, 2015 9:06:23	Yeah, generally I think of it as, Verbal: can't be gagged; Somatic: can't be tied up; Material: need a thing. I can see the desire for hand occupancy rules, to have a cost to accessing spells instead of weapons or whatever else you might be holding, but frankly I can't see what these rules actually add and I can see some concepts enabled by leaving them out.
#9 Kahless Sep 26, 2015 5:14:15	Weapon cord. Hand free and still have weapon available (via free object interaction). Just slap a thong on your warhammer a la Thor and go to town withi spells. I don't see too many GMs really stressing over this. Most handwave it. Also, vocal performance is music. Bards can just sing. No need to worry about hands free.