Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 phillstreet Jan 22, 2015 11:58:10	If a character is polymorphed, to what extent does the player retain control of the character? For instance, will a character polymorphed into a shark (presumably in appropriate waters) be forced to bite a fellow party member who is bleeding? Does a sufficiently non-intelligent form effectively make a polymorphed PC into an NPC for the duration of the spell?
#2 iserith Jan 22, 2015 12:07:33	As I see it, a player always has full control over his or her character unless stated otherwise, such as in the case of a character being subject to a dominate person spell. Even though a character that is polymorphed has ability scores that match the new form, it still retains its alignment and personality. Ability scores and checks only come into play to determine the results of an action whose results are uncertain when the DM establishes that they are. Otherwise, it is up to the player to decide what influence ability scores have on the character's personality.   If a DM wants to encourage a player to have his character act more like the new form, they can both agree on some new traits, ideals, bonds, and/or flaws that are in effect while the character is polymorphed. For example, a character polymorphed into a shark might write down "The smell of blood in the water makes me go crazy." Now, when the player acts in a way that draws upon that trait or flaw, the DM can reward Inspiration.
#3 mellored Jan 22, 2015 12:08:38	They are not forced to do anything and retrain control.   I usually have them make a DC 10 Int check if there's anything out of the ordinary.  Like another ally polymorphed into a seal.
#4 1eejit Jan 22, 2015 12:13:41	DM fiat, particularly as the rules don't explore it fully.   HOWEVER I think a lot of people underestimate how intelligent animals can be. Only the most unintelligent would be unable to distinguish friend and foe. Many predators are capable of decent tactical (if not strategic) thinking if they typically operate in groups (wolves, lions etc). Some have been observed to use tools in the real world.   Going by stat block INT scores the Raven at Int-2 represents one of the most intelligent animal species in our world. Elephants and Killer Whales are at Int-3, as are wolves and dogs. Int-1 animals I'd say would be pretty limited however.   As for your specific example... Reef Sharks in the MM have Pack Tactics and work in groups, so presumably they wouldn't attack a bleeding ally despite having an Int score of 1. Solitary Hunter and Giant Sharks who also have Int-1... yeah I could see myself interpreting their "Blood Frenzy" such that I'd have a polymorphed player have to make a roll to avoid attacking a wounded friend.
#5 slumgum Jan 22, 2015 13:14:03	Intelligence and personality are NOT interchangable and the spell specifically says you keep your personality.  You are not a shark, you're you with the body of a shark with diminished mental capabilities.  Don't ask yourself "What would Playername do if he was a shark?", ask "What would Playername do with an abysmal INT score?".  Would your DM make you viciously attack and bite party members if you were hit with Feeblemind?  No, that wouldn't make any sense.  And neither would a shark with YOUR personality attacking party members.
#6 OoftaMeg Jan 22, 2015 15:38:11	I'm going to play devil's advocate here.  A fish may not attack "friendly" fish, but I doubt it has either the intellectual capacity or even necessarily the senses to distinguish between friendlies and enemies.   Not saying shark Bob will attack his allies, I just don't know that he'll be able to distinguish between his buddy Sue and his arch nemesis Steve. The shark brain has simply not evolved to tell the subtle difference between humanoids.  We take it for granted that the face of one person looks different from another, but that's because our brains are wired to tell the difference.
(Reply to #6) Macv12	OoftaMeg wrote:
#8 mellored Jan 23, 2015 5:04:00	Recognizing friend from foe from food is the primary reason the brain exsists.   Heck, even some slime molds are capbile of that much.
(Reply to #7) OoftaMeg	Macv12 wrote:
#10 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 6:30:39	OoftaMeg wrote:
#11 El_Condoro Jan 23, 2015 6:33:18	That's the problem - it doesn't. You retain your alignment and "personality", however that is defined. Things like mental ability scores are specifically said to become those of the polymorph beast.
(Reply to #10) OoftaMeg	Noctaem wrote:
#13 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 6:39:54	Pretty sure about Intelligence and Wisdom, not so sure about charisma.  It also doesn't change who your enemies are, you don't suddenly become a different person mentaly just because you get polymorphed.  You're still you in every aspect except the physical from what I understand of the spell.
#14 El_Condoro Jan 23, 2015 6:43:46	The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality. Polymorph, p. 266   I have made a house rule that the polymorphed creature retains its Wisdom and Intelligence, but that's just a house rule - RAW is pretty clear.
(Reply to #13) OoftaMeg	Noctaem wrote:
#16 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 6:57:12	OoftaMeg wrote:
#17 El_Condoro Jan 23, 2015 7:04:08	Which Polymorph spell are you looking at? The 5th Ed one? Check post #14.
#18 Yunru Jan 23, 2015 7:06:38	Also: Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence =/= Whether you can or not, it's how well you can. A creature with 8 Int can solve logic puzzles, but not as well (or in most cases as quick), as a creature with 20 Int. Likewise a creature with 6 Cha can persuade people, but a 16 Cha creature can do it better. Etc.
#19 OoftaMeg Jan 23, 2015 7:18:09	Like I said, if you want to play in a toon/Disney version of the universe feel free. I don't think a creature with a 1 intelligence (or lower) "thinks" in the same way we do. IMHO a shark responds based on instinct, not rational thought. YMMV.
(Reply to #19) Yunru	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #20) OoftaMeg	Yunru wrote:
#22 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 7:28:44	The spell specifically says you retain your mental abilities.  Why are you arguing that you don't?  Are you just rying to confuse people or spread misinformation?  Or better yet, preface the wrong information you're giving by "This is how I would rule at my table"...
#23 El_Condoro Jan 23, 2015 7:31:11	The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality. Polymorph, PHB p. 266
(Reply to #21) Yunru	OoftaMeg wrote:
#25 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 7:45:33	got a link for the shark/human bonding example?  I'm just curious as to the circumstances that lead to the bonding happening in the first place.
(Reply to #24) OoftaMeg	[quote="Yunru"]<p></p><blockquote><div class="xbbcode-quote-header">OoftaMeg wrote:</div><div class="xbbcode-quote-content"> <p> </p> <blockquote> <div>Yunru wrote:</div> <div> <p> </p> <blockquote> <div>OoftaMeg wrote:</div> <div>Like I said, if you want to play in a toon/Disney version of the universe feel free. I don't think a creature with a 1 intelligence (or lower) "thinks" in the same way we do. IMHO a shark responds based on instinct, not rational thought. YMMV.</div> </blockquote> <p>Well that's just ignorance and discrimination against non-humans! Go hang with Cerberus you!</p> </div> </blockquote> <p>The OP was asking about a 1 intelligence shark here, not a 6 or 8 intelligence creature.  To me, that's a difference between capable of reasoning and responding to your environment based almost entirely based on instinct and reaction.</p> <p> </p> <p>Like I said, polymorph Bob into something with a reasonable intelligence, it's still Bob.  Maybe even a smarter-than-usual Bob.  But a shark?  That 1 intelligence is pretty limiting.</p> <p></p></div></blockquote>Exept it's not, you just claim it to be. <p>.</p> <p>And if we're going for IRL exampels here: Sharks live in shoals, they don't attack each other. From that alone they can distinguish friend from foe and cooperate with each other. And don't forget all the cases of sharks bonding with humans, to the point one swam up to a human it knew to have said human <em>pull a spear out of its mouth</em>. A barbed spear. And yet, even through the pain it didn't bite him.</p> [/quote] I've stated repeatedly that there is no clear cut answer to this one. But a quick glance at Snopes.com tells me the fishermen being buddies with a fish is a myth. Can sharks learn that at certain times of day there's lots of food at a certain location? Of course, it's what they're wired for. Why is your claim better than mine? It's up to what makes sense to the DM running the game and what will be fun for the group.
(Reply to #25) Yunru	Noctaem wrote:
#28 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 7:55:00	We've actually pointed out the spell's text, the definition of intelligence in the game amongst other things to explain to you why what you're saying doesn't make sense.  The fact that you're ignoring those things isn't our problem...
(Reply to #26) Yunru	OoftaMeg wrote:
#30 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 7:55:37	Yunru wrote:
#31 mellored Jan 23, 2015 7:56:01	OoftaMeg wrote:
#32 EzechielDantan Jan 23, 2015 8:04:05	I'd say you ae not forced to bite your fellow paty members though it will pobably make you aggressive or hungry. You still control who or what you bite.
(Reply to #29) OoftaMeg	Yunru wrote:
#34 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 8:29:08	Well at least you admit that you're not following the rules in your ruling because "realism".  That way when other people read this they can understand why you would say something that directly contradicts the spell's text.
(Reply to #34) OoftaMeg	Noctaem wrote:
#36 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 8:52:53	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #36) OoftaMeg	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #37) Yunru	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #33) Yunru	OoftaMeg wrote:
#40 mellored Jan 23, 2015 9:42:23	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #38) OoftaMeg	Yunru wrote:
#42 phillstreet Jan 23, 2015 10:03:18	Hi! I'm the OP. This is a cool discussion (that got a little heated too). For anyone still interested, how would you adjudicate this question from a balance-niche protection POV? Would you allow not allow a wizard to use Polymorph to turn into a giant ape or a polar bear for example, and retain control of their character because it would step on the druid's wildshape ability?
#43 DemoMonkey Jan 23, 2015 10:16:42	A polymorphed creature retains it's alignment and personality   A ploymorphed creature assumes the mental stats of the form it is changed into,   To what extent is "personality" a function of the stats used to define a character?   Simple solution to the shark specific question:   DM: "So, Lawgoodnius the Paladin, you have been transformed into a Great White shark. There are 5 other potential food objects in the bloody water with you. Would you like to bite one?"   Player: "I would never bite one of my friends! I bite the enemy!"   DM (following the standard process for task resolution in an uncertain situation): "Unfortunately, you have a hard time distinguishing friend from foe in your current state, with all that delicious blood around. Please give me a Wisdom check with your shark-ey Wisdom score."   Player: "Uhhhh...negative 2?"   DM: "Right then; I have randomly numbered the possible targets from 1 to 5 on my sheet here. If you still choose to take the attack action, after your attack roll would you be so kind as to roll a d6 to see who you are actually trying to bite? Roll again on a 6."
#44 guachi Jan 23, 2015 10:20:29	I would let them control their character, yes. Many things would be mechanically limited simply from having new stats, so many issues wouldn't be a problem. Since the personality doesn't change, if the player liked and wanted to protect his fellow party members then I'd let him react as such. Especially if he's turning into a mammal like an ape or a bear. It's not like he's turning into a giant ant.
#45 mellored Jan 23, 2015 10:23:17	phillstreet wrote:
#46 mellored Jan 23, 2015 10:22:53	guachi wrote:
#47 OoftaMeg Jan 23, 2015 10:29:09	Depending on the intelligence of the creature, I think DemoMonkey had a good suggestion. A reasonably intelligent creature can still easily distinguish between friends and foe and is still under the person's control. Something that doesn't rely on sight may also have difficulty distinguishing between friend and for.
#48 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 10:34:34	phillstreet wrote:
#49 mellored Jan 23, 2015 10:44:13	OoftaMeg wrote:
#50 mellored Jan 23, 2015 10:46:37	Noctaem wrote:
#51 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 10:47:55	Ok, not sure why I thought the spell specified another creature as the target.
(Reply to #49) OoftaMeg	mellored wrote:
#53 mellored Jan 23, 2015 11:23:33	OoftaMeg wrote:
#54 1eejit Jan 23, 2015 16:14:41	I agree. Though as I said before, the two of the three sharks in the MM with the feature called "blood frenzy" it would certainly be legitimate to ask for checks to maintain control of the DM feels like it. Just for flavour.