Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shintashi Jun 25, 2015 10:58:25	Attention Number Crunchers! it has come to my attention some people have really unusual ideas about what is actually obtainable using the core rules of 5e. Part of this ambiguity is the strange way in which multiple classes overlap, and assumptions about low/standard/high magic item availability.   So I ask you, brave and mighty mathemagicians to push the limits, what is actualy possible for maxes, in areas of # of attacks, Armor Class, Attack Bonus, and expected die pools, at level 1, and at level 19?   I ask with and without magic items, with and without assisted buffs from other characters. I put the level cap at 19 because boons throw the numbers out the window at 20th level.   I am able to see 5 or 6 attacks available, and AC of around 26-33 with and without stacking, and about 24+ without magic. I can see how to get around a +14-15 to hit reliably, and +18-34 with magical items and buffs, but some of my friends think I'm insane. Some say magic items aren't assumed to be part of the game -  implying game balance assumes no useful magic items from level 1-20.   I would like to for once and for all, see level 1 non magic item peaks, and level 19 non magic and magic item peaks, sustained and temporary, but preferably sustained, because we all know the Dice bonuses to these rolls from Warriors can slide them up to 12 points, and War priests have that 10 point buff.   So what im looking for is stable maximums to help guide home brew rules for things like new classes, races, and spells.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 25, 2015 12:15:58	There are too many degrees of freedom in this specific request, since we have to account for every possible magic item distribution and every possible team composition, including bizarre houserules or freaks of luck.   For example, the highest AC possible at level 1 without magic items or temporary buffs is currently 22. However, that depends on allowing Unearthed Arcana and rolling two 18s (warforged barbarian with 18 Dex, 20 Con, no armor, and a shield), which isn't a reasonable expectation to hold. (See also: level 1 plate mail).   It'd be easier to assemble records for each character individually, but also include records on supplying bonuses in those areas, and omit magic items altogether. (This isn't saying that magic items aren't useful - it just means that the game works if you don't have any, and you can evaluate each item independently. An author adding a +3 sword to an adventure, for instance, doesn't assume it's replacing a +2 sword on a PC already. Similarly, she doesn't assume that the sword's present when designing monster ACs - adding the sword makes the monster easier to hit and kill, but removing the sword doesn't make it impossible.)   An example of the italic bit: Variant Human Bard 1 (Magic Initiate: Cleric, learning Guidance, Resistance, and Bless) can supply up to +10 to another player's d20 roll (which type depends on the spell used). However, that's also a maximum result; the average is going to be closer to +6 (1d4+1d6). Such a character isn't likely to see much use, and including that +10 in any answer we provide skews the homebrew something fierce.   Similarly, you can get an attack bonus around +18 to +32 at level 20. However, this depends on two characters' actions or concentration slots and a separate attacker (Barbarian 20 with Bless (there are better uses for the cleric's concentration at this level) and a maxed-out Bardic Inspiration die), and it assumes a +3 weapon. Homebrewing a monster that's difficult to hit at +32 is homebrewing a monster that's unbeatable unless two or three members of the party employ this specific combination in the presence of that specific weapon. Any circumstance other than that will find such a monster impossibly hard.
#3 Sorsohka Jun 26, 2015 7:41:20	for level 1:   you can have 1 attack as an action,  +1 extra attack from a Haste 1 attack with bonus action (two weapon fighting is available to everyone, human can take a feat and polearm master and great weapon fighter offer a bonus action attack, monk also receive a bonus action attack. 2 attack with bonus action (monk can flurry of blow for 2 attack as a bonus action) 1 attack with reaction (from Attack of opportunity, from a commander strike, from polearm master feat (human)) So a level 1 character can have a maximum of 5 attack (Haste monk with flurry of blow)   at level 5 martial cahracter gain 1 additional attack for a total maximum of 6 attack   at level 11 the fighter gain 1 more attack so he now have the same among of attack as the monk who use flurry of blow (6 attack)   at level 20 the fighter now have 7 attacks.   If the fighter action surge, he will gain 1 more attack between level 1-4, 2 attack at level 5-10, 3 more attack at level 11-19 and 4 additional attack at level 20   From my knowledge, no magical item allow additional attack, or they don't stack with the bonus already presented.   AC wise: barbarian with 20 Dex, 20 Constitution and a sheild will have 22 AC A fighter with a full plate and defensive fighting style, and a shield can have 21 AC   Now you can gain magical item and technically you could find a +3 shield and +3 full palte, adding +6 on the fighter AC (27) and +3 to the barbarian (25) The barbarian can also get a bracer of defense for an additional +2 AC Some spell can add further bonus: shield add +5, shield of faith add +2 and +5 from 3/4 cover and stack with all the previous bonus. So a barbarian, fighter or paladin could have up to 39AC
#4 shintashi Jun 25, 2015 17:34:08	so a level 20 fighter using their action surge, would that be 1 haste +4 base + 4 surge + 1 reaction + 1 bonus from 2 hand/2weapon/other, for a total of 11 attacks? Am I understanding that correctly? and a Normal of 7? Would that also place the 19th level fighter at 9 attacks max, with a normal of 6?   so like, 3 base +1 haste +1 reaction +1 bonus from two weapons = 6, action surge = +3 more total = 9, without haste = 5, surge 8 without reaction or haste = 4, surge 7?   I'm trying to understand the action economy.   Monk appears to have attack + attack, but flurry of blows is +2 attacks instead of +1 attack, so their base attacks are 1+2 or 1+1, plus reaction; can the monk at level 1 take like, a dagger + short sword (monk weapons) and get +1 attack, for 3 attacks, and can they flurry that to 4 attacks? So would Reaction take them to 5, and haste to 6? (although haste seems like it isn't available until higher level than 1st)
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 25, 2015 18:11:04	Level 20 fighters have four attacks, not three, and he could hypothetically get an extra attack in there using two weapons (since the Haste action and Action Surge don't cost a bonus action to do). Thus, that's 10 attacks with Surge, Haste, and TWF.   I'm wondering if what you're looking for isn't so much practical / expected limits, so much as absolute world records. The former is more useful than the latter for homebrewers.
#6 mellored Jun 26, 2015 6:57:36	For general purpose 5e numbers maximum...   AC: ~22 DC: ~19 To-hit: ~11 with advantage, (which is ~15). Saving throw: ~15   +3 to each with magic items.
#7 Sorsohka Jun 26, 2015 7:48:30	Attack bonus/saving throws and ability check: Those 3 mechanic work in a similar fashion: proficiency+stat modifier+magical bonus   Everyone got the same proficiency(cap at +6), the same stat bonus cap at 20(+5) so this is a +11. Then barbarian level 20 can get 24 strenght so +13 you can find magic item increasing your stat up to 29 so +15 you can abuse some item to get even more stat (book of +2 stats that can be used every 100 years, if you store the book in a pocket dimension where time pass faster you could read the book every 2 days and reach 100 in your stat, but i will ignore thise kind of cheese) +3 with a weapon/wand/protection item so the maximum you could hope to reach would be +18 that everyone can reach. Archery can have an addition +2 (with archery fighting style) for a total of +20 For skills, rogue/bard can gain expertise doubling the proficiency bonus so for an expertise ability check the maximum would be +12+9=+21   remember rogue get an ability where they can roll and if they roll under 10 they can take 10 instead.
(Reply to #5) shintashi	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#9 shintashi Jun 26, 2015 10:17:20	Sorsohka wrote:
(Reply to #9) Sorsohka	shintashi wrote:
#11 shintashi Jun 26, 2015 12:43:57	dimensional pocket? I was unable to find that spell/item. In earlier editions you could use the Astral and Ethereal planes to speed up or slow down time - a useful trick for doing several weeks of meditation in a short period of time or just trying to outlive old foes.   I think it's possible for a DM to create a "similar purpose" item, or even for wizards to invent their own, but this stuff falls under the level 20 domain of boons. While it is true a character of perhaps 16-19th level could create medium powered magic items, the 27 and 29 stat belts are legendary, and at 500,000 gold to craft, take 500,000/25 = 20,000 days to create, which is about 55 years.
#12 Sorsohka Jun 26, 2015 15:42:13	have you look at the spell: Demiplane?   Demiplane 8 th-level conjuration Casting Time: 1 action Range: 60 feet Components: S Duration: 1 hour You create a shadowy door on a flat solid surface that you can see within range. The door is large enough to allow Medium creatures to pass through unhindered. When opened, the door leads to a demiplane that appears to be an empty room 30 feet in each dimension, made o f wood or stone. When the spell ends, the door disappears, and any creatures or objects inside the demiplane remain trapped there, as the door also disappears from the other side. Each time you cast this spell, you can create a new demiplane, or have the shadowy door connect to a demiplane you created with a previous casting of this spell. Additionally, if you know the nature and contents o f a demiplane created by a casting o f this spell by another creature, you can have the shadowy door connect to its demiplane instead.   This spell also existed in previous edition. In 3rd edition you even have a book completly dedicated to creating and travel throught planes.
#13 shintashi Jun 27, 2015 14:15:21	Sorsohka wrote:
#14 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 28, 2015 12:25:30	shintashi wrote:
#15 shintashi Jun 29, 2015 9:53:09	well, actually the genesis demiplane created grows at 2 feet per year, and can mimic haste or slow effects (3rd level spells and less), which approximately doubles or halves time flow if desired. The mansion I used as an example of "stuff" being there, which the 5e version apparently lacks. The mansion has furniture, atmosphere, and illusional food and servants. The 5e spell we are referencing has an empty room with walls - not exactly the pocket universe most wizards would prefer, more like a larger area effect version of the 2e psionic pocket dimension, which can be used as a bag of holding or a trap. So the new 5e spell, instead of being an oasis mini paradise, is more like a prison attack spell, when compared with the Genesis or Mansion spell.   I'm not sure that was the intent. Sometimes what looks like flavor text, when removed by editors, is actually the important content. I have no idea what the writers were intending when they added that spell to 5e, but it feels like it's a punishment, not a reward or vacation.   Either way, best temporal distortion i was able to eek out of the genesis was x1/2 or x2.   The 100 years in a day or whatever, seems like wishful thinking.