Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 5car5tream Feb 17, 2015 1:46:33	Our group is looking for some clarification on: "At the DM's discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to ABANDON THIS CLASS AND ADOPT ANOTHER..." that is straight out of the PHB and supposedly quoted from the DMG. I believe for the most part we grasp maintaining an oath or becoming an oathbreaker. But we were playing around with different things and stumbled across this line and we're intrigued as to what this would entail. We did some research and came up dry. Hoping someone can shed some light on what this would entail. Edit: capitalized what we are looking insight on.
#2 Captain_Kobold Feb 17, 2015 2:37:51	The Oathbreaker subclass of Paladin is in the DMG, and might be allowed by some DMs in certain games. Otherwise an impenitent Paladin might just be relegated to Fighter, or a similar class with a different source of power.   The Paladin gains their abilities from the power of their Oath. If they abandon their Oath, they probably can't access most of their abilities.
#3 OoftaMeg Feb 17, 2015 6:46:45	In my home campaign, I had a paladin that broke their oath.  I gave the player a choice - either play a paladin with no spells, auras or special abilities and seek absolution or to become a fighter (at a loss of a level or so).   She chose to seek absolution and it became a fun RP/campaign arc for several sessions.  The worst part was when I had her bonded mount come running up, skid to a stop and then reject her.   What the form the penitance/absolution takes is largely left up the DM, but shouldn't be as simple as going to the local priest to have a spell cast.
#4 celtwarrior Feb 17, 2015 17:25:29	if useful here is the rule from 1st ed: "...loses the status of paladinhood...All benefits are then lost...he or she is everafter a fighter" p22 from the 1st ed PHB 1978
#5 Illithidbix Feb 18, 2015 17:19:14	Had a look at this myself, the answer is...   There isn't any further mention of "abandoning your class" or “changing your class” anywhere in 5E rules... The best I'd come up with is "forced to multiclass into another class by the DM"       Personally I think the idea of Paladins becoming crappy fighters without their supernatural powers is *mostly* an awful idea. I can see it working for some settings, but since Paladins are no longer inherently more awesome than other classes it feels weird. It was esp. odd in 3E when the Paladin concept was moved closer towards “Holy Warrior of a God” rather than “Knight bound by Oath of power” and Clerics didn't suffer the same problem of falling.   Mostly seemed too much like a “Gotcha!” punishment or using Alignment to tell people how to play their characters. I can see plenty of players enjoying the damnation and redemption narrative despite being downpowered.   I much rather have them get the CURSED WITH AWESOME! of being an Oathbreaker... along with pissed off angels, paladins etc.   Currently have a 3rd level Paladin in my game who decapitated another PC during an heated argument about the ethical treatment of bandit prisoners. Taking umbrage to the Sorceress who incinerated one of them.   She now gets horrific dreams of those she has murdered, dreams of being a Knight who slew a bronze dragon ally over a similar ethical dispute, causing said bronze dragon to become a dracolich.   And a form of stigmata; a neck wound that constantly bleeds and inflicts damage if she tries to heal it.   … And because she hasn't chosen an Oath yet (it'll be part of an upcoming dungeon) – she has “unlocked” the Oathbreaker option!
(Reply to #5) 5car5tream	Thank you for being the first person to approach my actual question. Our group came to the conclusion of their being zero info on the subject and we will be house ruling it depending on the situation. Likely outcome will be someone in the group mentoring the former paladin in their own art. Likely the pc he has formed the closest bond with. Their will be lost levels of some sort, determined by the level in which this takes place.
#7 Xaspian Feb 23, 2015 6:05:32	The paladin in our group abandonned his old oath of Devotion and took up the Oath of Vengeance instead, to better reflect the character's shifted approach and beliefs. This was a negotiation between me as DM and the paladin's player. The possibility of loosing powers entirely (and perhap rebuilding the PC as a fighter ) or taking the Oathbreaker path from the DMG both came up, but we ended up agreeing that Vengeance made most sense for the player, for the character and for the overall story.     Edit: With regard to abandoning the class, in our group we would likely just say rebuild the character at the same level, but replace the Paladin levels with something else (most likely fighter, but possibly something else depending on the story surrounding the change). Alternatively, we might say that the character can keep all their paladin levels and abilities, but not advance any further and thus multiclass into something else going forwards.  We use milestone levelling and keep all party members at the same level, so if it was felt that the character should lose any levels, they would be regained at an accelerated rate until the ex-paladin was the same level as the rest of the party again.
#8 Avross Feb 23, 2015 10:33:03	The whole point of the Paladin is that you gain powers based on your oath to a deity (or some other power).   That deity or power gives you those abilities...   Yes, forcing a player to switch to a fighter or other class (or playing a paladin with no abilities) is mean, and it would suck.   But you aren't talking about a paladin who misses a Sunday service, or who makes a mistake.  We're talking high crimes against their Oath.   So a paladin CHARACTER breaking the oath is a CONSCIOUS choice by the PLAYER.  THEY decided to have their character turn their back on the ideals they vowed to champion.    It shouldn't be "Oh, remember that thing you did last week?   Yeah, that broke your Oath."    When a paladin CHARACTER breaks their vow, it's because the PLAYER either (a) doesn't want to play a paladin anymore, (b) didn't really read the description of the paladin, or (c) is hoping to become an Oathbreaker.   In both cases, there should be a player/DM conversation *before* the paladin goes on a baby-killing rampage (or whatever breaks their vow).         Plus, that's a big story event...it doesn't (or shouldn't) happen often.  How often do you read stories where an order of Knights has a fallen member every 3-4 years?   No, it's usually that one black mark on their pristine order.   So if it's going to happen...don't just drop it on the DM, give them a chance to decide if they can work it into the story.     Personally, if there wasn't a *really* good argument to switch to Oathbreaker, as a DM, I would give the player three options: 1) Switch to a fighter (or as Xaspian suggests, something else which makes sense). 2) Be a powerless paladin (expecting that the player is going to seek redemption and get their powers back.) 3) Roll a new character and have the fallen paladin become an NPC.   (Or be hunted down by the rest of his order...because the PC now represents a threat to them).
#9 mellored Feb 23, 2015 11:36:32	Makes me want to play a paladin with multiple personality disorder.   Each one has a different oath.
#10 Orethalion Feb 23, 2015 13:26:37	mellored wrote: