So there is no Open Locks / Disarm Traps skill, but there are Thieves' Tools in which one can get proficiency.
There is some lack of clarity in the text on how one would go about opening locks or disarming traps, but it seems if one wants to do so, this appears to be how it would work.
1. It is just an ability check to do so, and generally DEX in most cases. (P154 Thieves' Tools description says "...any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks." and P177 Dexterity description says "DM might call for a Dexterity check when you try to...Pick a lock or Disable a trap"). Notably, the need for tools or lack thereof is not mentioned there.
2. You appear to need tools to do it. (P154 Tools description says "A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise do, such as...pick a lock.")
3. If you have Proficiency in Thieves' Tools, you get to add your Proficiency bonus to the ability check (P154 Thieves' Tools description says "Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks.")
4. But you do not need to have Proficiency in order to use Thieves' Tools (see quote above, Proficiency lets you add your bonus, i.e., if you didn't have Proficiency, you could do it, just without the bonus).
5. Perhaps if you do not have Thieves' Tools, you might be able to make use of makeshift scraps of metal, bone, etc. instead and try the ability check with Disadvantage. (P173 on Advantage and Disadvantage) I would rule that if one has the tools, whether makeshift or not, one would still get the Proficiency bonus if they have the Proficiency, as (a) they would have the tools in some sense, (b) they are already getting DIsadvantage for the makeshift tools, which is severe enough, (c) if one is particularly skilled (i.e.., Proficient in Thieves' Tools), one should be able to do better than someone who is not Proficient, if comparing both people trying to use makeshift Thieves' Tools, and (d) it would be cool to see PCs pull it off occasionally, and a double penalty would be too severe for that to happen.
Does this process seem correct (other than some elements of #5, which would be personal judgment)?
Yes. As you said, I'm not sure I'd completely agree on the makeshift tools part in number 5, but the rest sound right according to RAW.
I woudl judge it as follows:
1. you have tools and you're proficient with them: roll dex check with prof bonus.
2. you have tools and you're not froficient with them: roll dex check
3. you don't have tools and you're not proficient with them: you have to get some iprovising tools and roll dex with disadvantage.
4. you don't have tools but you're proficient with them: you have to get some improvising tools but you know what will be the best for that job. you roll dex check with prof with disadvantage.
or a simple Strenght check for unlocking door works great lol^^
For trap, usually with a big enought HP pool you don't need to worry.
Sorxores wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Trance-Zg wrote:
Awesome explanation and ruling. 
Trance-Zg wrote:
Trance-Zg wrote:
Trance-Zg wrote:
Noon wrote:
This is great stuff. I was having similar thoughts regarding crafting. Let me take it a bit further. This came up as a result of a discussion with a friend who wanted to make a ranger with the folk hero background but didn't like any of the artisan's tools choices, so apologies for using an example that's not actually in the PHB. He wanted fletcher's tools, which I suggested are similar to woodcarver's tools and would probably cost about the same. In any case, we were running through similar scenarios as described in this thread and added a couple, probably because we both seemed to think that the skill Survival also could play a role for the ranger in question (in prior editions, did Survival allow a character to make arrows? That may explain how we got there.). So:
Same initial 4 as above:
- Make arrows with fletcher's tools and no proficiency: Dex check
- Make arrows with fletcher's tools and proficient: Dex check with prof. bonus.
- Improvised tools, not proficient: Dex check with disadvantage
- Improvised tools and proficient: Dex check with prof bonus, with disadvantage.
But, also maybe this:
- Use Survival skill to forage for fletcher's tools...obviously a big question for a DM ruling, but perhaps a successful check allows you to find/make tools of sufficient quality to avoid the disadvantage (regardless of whether you are proficient with the tools)?
Or maybe this is better:
- Use Survival skill to forage for supplies (arrow shafts, feathers, etc.) using Survival skill: Make arrows based on checks as above but for half or no cost (another question for a DM ruling and clearly assumes you are in an environment where such materials can be found); seems a fair use of Survival to me.
Finally, it also got us thinking about what it means to fail the check. If one is skilled as a fletcher (i.e. with fletcher's tools), it seems that, unlike attempting to pick a lock, success or failure shouldn't mean that you do or don't make an arrow, but rather whether the quality of the arrow you make is sufficient for use. So (and this may be a stretch but just throwing it out there):
- Make arrows with fletcher's tools and no proficiency, but fail the check: end up with arrows that may or may not look like arrows but in any case are clearly unusable.
- Make arrows with fletcher's tool and proficiency, but fail the check (perhaps by an amount that is less than your proficiency bonus?): end up with arrows that can be used but automatically grant disadvantage on the attack and have no resale value.
Taking it too far?
Noon wrote:
Why make up new rules for it? Just use the crafting rules in the book.
You can make 100 arrows in one day, and only pay 2.5 gold for the materials.
The survival skill allows for a lifestyle of 'comfortable' (1 gold per day) so based on that you could rule that it takes 3 days to get enough materials for 100 arrows (it actually works out to 40/day).
There are no 'rolls' for crafting. Either you have proficiency and you do it. Or you don't and you can't.
I am still in doubt regarding being proficient in thieves tools as requisite to open locks or disarm traps. And it's because this little sentence in Working Together section (Chapter 7 page 175 in PHB: also in Basic PDF, page 59): "A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task".
I twitted to Mike Mearls before noticing this and he answered back assuring proficiency wasn't required. But then I twitted him asking again and pointing this information under Working Together. No answer yet.
Guest703856308 wrote:
Noon wrote:
In a round about way there is an open locks skill. Under locks(PHB pg 152) is says specificall that you need to be proficient in thieves tools to open one - DC15. As far as traps go, I haven't found any specific ruling. In the Hoard of the Dragon queen module there are a few traps listed, but just WIS check to fund them and nothing about disarming. It appears that once you find the trap, you can avoid it.
Requiring proficiency to attempt to open a lock makes sense. I may not be proficient with a sword, but I can swing one and it will hurt if by chance I hit. I'm not proficient at chess, but I know what the pieces do and I can play, even if my chances of winning are pretty low. I'm not a proficient athlete, but I can climb a rockwall ok. Give me a set of lockpicking tools and even a very simple lock, I will never get it open. no matter how nimble my fingers are, I just wouldn't know what to do with it.
As other people in this thread have pointed out, there are references in the rules indicating you must have proficency with lockpicks to be able to pick locks. I tend to think this is the intention, but it should be made clearer. Obviously, picking a lock is not a skill everyone has.
If I were to allow a character who is not proficient to make an attempt to pick a lock, I would probably give them disadvantage or some other penalty on the roll. Still not sure if I'd allow it at all.
Devils-Advocate wrote:
[edited due to finding an answer in another thread]
Turns out the PHB answers some of these questions with specific descriptions.
For picking locks: See the Lock item description on page 152: "A key is provided with the lock. Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check. Your DM may decide that better locks are available for higher prices."
For crafting (like fletching): See Crafting's initial description on page 187: "You must be proficient with tools related to the object you are trying to create (typically artisan's tools)....Multiple characters can combine their efforts toward the crafting of a single item, provided that the characters all have proficiency with the requisite tools..."
I expect the upcoming DM guide will have similar rules for disarming traps, once specific traps are listed with their challenge ratings, etc. Are there no specific DC and proficiency rules for traps in the two released modules? (I haven't read them)
I would not allow someone who isn't proficient in thieves tools to attempt to pick a lock. Picking locks is a specialty someone should invest in. And that's great, it makes that character special and wanted on the team. But sure, I would allow someone who's proficient but is missing his tools to attempt to improvise, with Disadvantage, as y'all suggested. Otherwise, what's the fun of taking the players prisoner in my Orc dungeon after they lose in a battle? Whatever works to best fit the story and is the most fun for everyone should ultimately win out.
My suggestion:
1. You have the required tools and you're proficient with them: roll skill check with your proficiency bonus.
2. You do not have the required tools -or- you're not proficient with them: no capability.
3. You have improvised tools, and your proficient: roll skill check with proficiency bonus and disadvantage.
Any character can learn a new tool in their downtime. A non rogue can learn how to use those tools. If they decide not to, then they will just have to use the old bash and break technique.