Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 VetMichael Aug 03, 2015 14:04:14	A general question and sorry if this has been covered before but a search pulls up SO MUCH when the words "Imp" or "Invisible are involved. That out of the way, here's the question for the collective wisdom of the forum and (hopefully) the Devs of 5e:   Owls: In the PHB, owls have the "Flyby" ability that does not provoke an attack of opportunity when flying out of an enemy's reach. Owls can be taken as Familiars.  Familiars can use the "Help" action to give advantage to another player. If the other player is an assassin, this makes the assassin automatically do sneak attack damage (because he has advantage). No other familiar has such an ability, making Owl the obvious choice if you want other members of the party (or the wizard) to have advantage EVERY TIME in combat. So, why choose any other familiar, ever? Is there a way that a BBG, or any enemy, really, counter the owl's ability at all? Doesn't this "break" combat then?   Unseen Servants: can perform mundane tasks and itneract with objects. But do they count as "allies" in granting advantage. Since the US cannot be seen, cannot attack, and is non-thretening in every way, my gut says "no" but many a Munchkin would argue the rule is ambiguous and since the caster is an "ally" any creature of his is, by definition, and ally, and thus the "ally adjacent" rule kicks in. Again, this smells a lot like it "breaks" the game, since most enemies cannot see invisible and cannot get a reaction to their "ally" status or end it in any way.   Invisible Imps/Quasits: Warlock Pact of the Chain familiar Imp/Quasit can apparate beyond a door or other barrier and scout ahead, correct? In fact, the tiny fiends could scout an entire dungeon with little harm to itself and the Warlock is able to describe the entire layout of the dungeon, any monsters or traps, magical areas, treasure, and so on. Heck, the buggers can carry things with it, which also remain invisible, meaning some missions could be accomplished with NO RISK to the party at all; steal the small magic item from the BBG. Poison the BBG by slipping a toxin into his drinking cup. Give a key to the prisoner in the cell block at the botom of the dungeon and guide him out with whispers. No Wizard Familiar can do anything similar. Does this not also "break" the game?   I know 5e is all about story telling and a lot of the ridiculous powergaming is gone from this edition that bedeviled the earlier editions, but these glaring loopholes seem to me to circumvent that efforts with 5e. What would you all suggest as counters or preventative measures for these exploits? Does there need to be an errata on these things as well?
#2 Yunru Aug 03, 2015 14:11:27	"This specific subclass that focuses on familiars does better than everyone else's familiars, is it broken?" What. Just... What?
#3 Danny_Montanny Aug 03, 2015 14:23:56	Sneak Attack is easy to get and is already included in game balance, so the owl isn't a concern if you ask me. Besides, it act only one turn per round, it can only Help with one attack. Not exactly world shattering.   Sure, the Unseen Servent could distract someone, so why not allow them to Help? I wouldn't give them the same status as a normal ally in regard to Sneak Attack though, since they're not exactly doing the same thing.   Sure, have your Imp do all the heavy lifting. That sounds like fun... and the guy they're rescuing will make it out past all the guards no problem, right?
#4 OoftaMeg Aug 03, 2015 14:56:55	For the owl: it's one attack per round an if you pull this trick often, as a DM I would be targeting and killing your familiar on a regular basis. Servant: To get sneak attack your enemy must have another enemy adjacent. An invisible servant is not an enemy. Imp: even invisible, your imp still needs to make stealth checks. In order to see through it's eyes you need to be within 100 ft. It's low strength will limit it. Last but not least ... as a DM I may have the imp try to weasel out of particularly dangerous situations by following the letter of your commands. They are evil little cowards after all.
(Reply to #4) transcendantviewer	OoftaMeg wrote:
#6 El_Condoro Aug 03, 2015 16:22:12	For SA to give advantage, the attacker does not need an "ally" to get advantage on the roll - it needs "an enemy of the target", which is an important distinction. The US is not an enemy of the target. Since no (combat) Actions are specified for one, I would say the US is incapable of performing the Help action and is restricted to the types of actions specified in the spell (interact with an object et al).
(Reply to #5) OoftaMeg	transcendantviewer wrote:
(Reply to #7) transcendantviewer	OoftaMeg wrote:
#9 Greenstone.Walker Aug 03, 2015 19:27:50	OoftaMeg wrote:
#10 Qzoo Aug 03, 2015 22:18:35	Invisible imps are quite the headache IMO.  Scouting ahead is pretty much something that can be done every dungeon, and it takes away any suspense if you allow it to go on for any length of time.   I've made a compromise with my player, and reminded him that it isn't fun for the group for me to read the dungeon description for room after room before they even get there.  Likewise, the adventure isn't about his character and his imp.  It needs to be about the group.  I think part of the abuse comes from the fact that losing the familiar costs very little to the PC.  An hour later you just resummon your familiar, even if it, "died," in combat.  It's too disposable, and at little cost.   The other problem is that there seems to be no limit to the amount of times it can turn invisible, or shape change.  My ruling is that during combat, the imp can use each power (to include each shapechange form) once per combat.  Outside of combat I place no restrictions.  This has worked well, without feeling like the imp is the primary character rather than the warlock, but still allowing the imp to do all the cool imp things.   Stealth is still important.  Perceptive enemies should still be able to sense something is in the room with them.  The sound of flying wings (in raven or imp form) can certainly give them away as well.  There are warlock options that allow unlimited communication with the familiar on the same plane...talk about a DM headache?!  The best solution is to give your imp a bit of character, and perhaps make him always smell of sulfer, or make it a lazy imp who wants rewards, or choose to have some sort of penalty if the imp, "dies."   All those things take some work and require discussion with your player.  I abhor changing things from written if they explicitly state it a certain way, but I feel it is unfair to the group if I don't limit the imp in some way.  It is too perfect a scout if left unchanged IMO.   Imps are cool, but are prone to abuse.  The designers did a poor job on this one IMO.
#11 El_Condoro Aug 04, 2015 1:54:48	[An imp] "can't be relied on to carry out tasks with any speed or efficiency" MM, p. 69.   Buyer beware, I say. "Yes, I'll go and scout ahead for you, master" (but I might take a bit longer than expected, or I might not take in every detail as I think about things back in the Nine Hells, or I might just be naughty and give you mortals a bit of a fright...)   It is a devil, after all - not known for their fealty or honesty.
#12 ArialBlack Aug 04, 2015 23:08:02	I believe that the 'Help' action can only help in tasks that ther helper can do themselves. Since familiars cannot attack, they cannot Help attacks.   The Chainlock's familiar CAN attack, and therefore can Help with attacks.
#13 Qzoo Aug 06, 2015 21:55:54	From the Find Familiar Spell:  "Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can’t attack, but it can take other actions as normal."   From Warlock's Pact of the Chain:  "Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own."   So, now the imp can attack, which means it can also threaten a space, allowing things like sneak attack to kick in for rogue PCs.  Also, it ALWAYS OBEYS its master's commands, so that cuts the mischief factor to nil as soon as the warlock orders it to stop any general mayhem without explicit permission.   Add in the invocation: Voice of the Chain Master:  "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence."   Now you have a scout that can explore invisibly, allowing you to scry (see and hear) through the imp's senses at unlimited range, and even possibly engage in combat by itself.  The other big peeve is that there seems to be no limit to the number of times it can use its powers, such as invisibility, which is a pretty big deal IMO.   So, yeah, the imp is a bit of a problem for DMs if a players chooses to abuse it...I have to wonder, did the designers intend for this much power in a familiar?  It can be disruptive to the agency of the players as a group IMO, and can make the game very un-fun very quickly if a warlock player chooses to abuse it (which the rules seem to welcome).   I've developed a compromise with my player, but as written, it appears ripe for abuse.
#14 transcendantviewer Aug 06, 2015 22:41:33	If it makes the game unenjoyable, Qzoo, then the problem resolves itself. The players say they're not having fun, the situation gets resolved. Rules are just the guidelines, that doesn't mean they're the be-all end-all of the game. If you've got a problem with how things run in a game, talk with your players about changing it. Powergamers can actually be reasoned with, even if they are just out for power. Hell, when I was a player in 3.5, I was out for power, but I was totally accepting of DM's rulings and willing to step down from a roll whenever someone got uncomfortable with how things were going.
#15 Sorsohka Aug 07, 2015 7:22:18	Owls: Owl got very low HP and AC, Remember find familiar is not the same as familiar from 3e. the owl use the regular owl stat and do not receive HP bonus, AC bonu and other protective ability like the 3e familiar had. So simply cast fireball and the owl is dead, ready action to attack the owl when it come in range and the owl is dead. you can ill that owl so easily even with flyby that it shouldn't be a big problem, even a goblin with a crossbow can kill that owl without problem. If the caster want to constantly send his owl within reach of the enemy, I know many enemies who will be thank full for the free meal.   Unseen Servants: Unseen servant is non treathening so no it doesn't work. Like you said the rule might be ambigious, menaing the DM (you) have the final word, and you juge that unseed servant do not count as an ally in combat.   Invisible Imps/Quasits: The invisible imp is not a bigger problem then the invisible rogue. all the stuff you would use to prevent the invisible rogue from ruining your dungeon can be apply to the imp. I don't have my book with me, but I think you need line of sight to make your imp appear. meaning your imp need to open every door, is the imp is strong enought to open those door? no guard are noticing the door opening for no reason? the warlock get his imp at level 3. All the real spellcaster gain spell level 2 at level 3 and see invisibility is a spell level 2, so if the scouting imp become a problem, maybe the enemy will start learning see invisibility and kill that imp. I still don't have my book, but isn't a maximum distance can go from the master? The imp still have low strenght, can he really carry all that loot? Invisibile do not mean undetectable, just mean he's allowed to use a stealth check, so the guard can still use there perception agianst the imp (and if the imp just opened a door, I would even give advantage to my guard). the same way you wouldn't allow the invisible rogue to open the door unoticed. have you seen the poison in the DMG? If you want a deadly poison it will cost you a lot of gold and the effect might be potent, but not deadly. the price for poison is incredibility high and only for a single dose. Some poison require injury to take effect so the imp will become visible if it attack. and poison cannot be bought at the corner store, usually you need contact with the underground market and buy such poison on the blackmarket. If the imp whisper to the prisoner, guard will still see the prisonner walking free, the guard might still hear the imp (or the prisonner whispering back). When the prisonner hear a voice he is really going to follow that voice?   If a imp (what is the CR of the imp 1/2?) is a problem to the dungeon, maybe you should increase the difficulty of your dungeon, considering the dungeon was suppsoe to be a challenge for a group of 4 adventurers level 3+. How would you stop the rogue level 3 to receive invisibility from the wizard and ruin the dungeon the same way the imp would (and the rogue is stronger then the imp... hopefully) If your dungeon can be defeated by a simple CR1/2 creature, how did that dungeon survive so long? what about the alarm spell (spell level 1) that would warn that an intruder entered the dungeon?     Everything that seem overpower got a counter. Some counters require the enemy to adapt (like learning see invisibility) other counter are pretty simple (the guard noticing the door opening) and other counter need to make a choice (attaking the pesky owl or attacking the mage himself) But the player also had to make a choice, the warlock of the chain didn't took the pact of the book so he didn't receive extra cantrip and ritual casting. The wizard who took a find familiar as a spell level 2 didn't took something else.   and there is stuff that are can be extremely dificult for some group, and extremly easy for other. a horde of skeleton for example, if you party do not have any blunt weapon user the encounter will be more difficult then if your entire party got some sort of blunt attack. fighting a horde of demon with a group of fighter without magic weapon will be amost impossible, but if your party got paladin who imbu there sword with divine energy, those demon will melt like butter on hot crispy waffles
#16 strider13x Aug 07, 2015 15:00:36	imps are EVIL! it may obey but with a twist, so be careful how you word your requests... also the scouting thing is only for 100' and that aint far in a dungeon...
#17 OoftaMeg Aug 07, 2015 19:38:36	To quote the monster manual entry under imps   "An imp will proudly serve an evil master of any kind, but it can't be relied on to carry out tasks with any speed or efficiency."   Yes, an imp can scout.  But he's probably not going to be very good at it, get distracted easily, and will possibly take another offer if he thinks he can weasel out of his current contract and get a better deal.  Well, and he's constantly trying to corrupt the mage into doing more and more evil deeds.
#18 jaelis Aug 07, 2015 19:58:26	If an imp is unreliable, couldn't you just use a sprite instead?
#19 Dwarfslayer Aug 12, 2015 8:23:33	Qzoo wrote:
#20 Wulf2k Aug 13, 2015 11:05:13	The important question is whether the imp is an imp, or a spirit in the shape of an imp.   Are you willing to give your warlock Magic Resistance for having the imp near him?  (MM p.69)  Or is it a spirit in the form of in imp like Find Familiar says, so no magic resistance, but also no impish lack of obedience?