Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Saerrian Sep 12, 2014 4:46:06	So I am currently a level 4 Dragonborn (Silver ancestry) Vengeance Paladin of Bahamut, Running a 20 on strength, 16 on Charisma, and a.. +1 or +2 on Constitution. I am running a Greatsword with great weapon fighting style, and I have a sword and shield as backup, and occasionally, javelins.   OUu party consists of myself,  a half elf lore bard. a gnome divination wizard a halfling thief rogue a tiefling pact blade warlock, Fiend pact. and an NPC ranger halfling who doesn't fight, and is our cartographer.   So, my question is... I think I want to have my Dragonborn multiclass into warlock at level 6, maybe. Or perhaps level 5. However, I am not sure the best way to go about it mechanically. I think turning my greatsword into a pact weapon and freeing up some weight on that, as well as making it magical, would be a bonus. I am the only melee we have, and the hardiest, so having the ability to command and such sound slike a good plan. I don't really want damage, but I think having the ability to gain vision in magically darkness will help, when our wizard keeps throwing darkness everywhere.   But doing this, I was wondering.. How many spell slots would I have, and how would that work in regards to using spells, smiting, and short rests? I'm confused by this aspect.   Also, any suggestions on how to do this would be awesome. I really don't want to take from the 'face' of our tiefling, so I'm not really looking for damaging spells, more like... Control and perhaps protection form good/evil or something along those lines that fit into the paladin archetype.   And on a lore aside... How would I go about doing this? My character's clutchsister is assumed to be a sorc, but she is in fact a warlock. Would he even be able to accept a pact as a vengeance paladin of bahamut? Or can the pact by to bahamut, substituting the word fiend for bahamut and something like the name false life (eldritch vigor i think) into 'dragon's blood' or something similar?     Or would sorc  be better to ad donto him?
#2 2Chlorobutanal Sep 12, 2014 5:15:17	I wouldn't miss level 5 Paladin for Extra Attack.   Warlocks play differently with spell slots than other caster classes.  You gain them separately from your Paladin (or any other caster) spell slots, but you can use your Paladin slots to cast Warlock spells that you learn (of the same or lower level) and you can use your Warlock slot (it starts at just one and then goes up to 2+) to cast Paladin spells in the same manner.   Note that Warlocks recover their spell slots after any rest, not just a long rest (different from other casters).   There is a sentence in the description of Divine Smite that says you must use a "Paladin spell slot" to Divine Smite- that could be interpreted to work with multiclassing or not work with it.   Paladins have the spell protection from good and evil as a class spell, so you can already prepare that without multiclassing.  Taking 3 levels of warlock to save the encumbrance of a greatsword seems like a poor reason to multiclass in and of itself.   You can pledge an oath to an Archfey if you don't want to deal with fiends.  Alternatively, you could be totally grimdark and be a non-good paladin that still believes in the ideals of Bahamut's ministry but does some evil things to accomplish those ends- you're already the "any means necessary" type of Paladin.   Maybe ask your wizard to stop shooting darkness everywhere if you are having problems with it- two levels of Warlock to remedy this seems a bit convoluted.  Even if you get Devil's Sight, he could still confound you with fog clouds, gas clouds, smoke clouds, or sleet storms.   Your party seems super Charisma-heavy and also magic-heavy, so I'm not sure it needs more Warlock, but at this point what're you really going to do?
#3 mellored Sep 12, 2014 5:21:57	Warlock and Paladin multi-attack (or any other multi-attack) do not mix.   Though there are alternate options for the warlock.
#4 Danny_Montanny Sep 12, 2014 5:25:14	Pact Magic works differently than Spellcasting. You'll have the spell slots and prepare spells as normal as a Paladin, but gain the known spells and the 1 1st-level spell slot when you pick up Warlock. It's detailed in the multiclassing section of Chapter 6. Essentially, you'll get more lower level slots to smite with per long rest, provided you're able to take some short rests. So as a 4/1 you'll have 3 (I think, don't have my book with me) 1st-level slots and 1 1st-level pact slot. Just state you're using your pact slot or spellcasting slot when casting or smithing and track them separately. Used pact slots become available after a short rest.   Reflavoring spells is a definite "yes" as far as I'm concerned. So long as mechanically they're the exact same, rename and describe them how you wish.   As for your pact, talk to your DM. A powerful Devil would love to subvert a worshiper of a good god. A "silver dragon" coming to you claiming they've been sent by Bahamut to grant you powers, so long as you agree to certain conditions wouldn't make you question it much, I would think.
(Reply to #2) Saerrian	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#6 2Chlorobutanal Sep 12, 2014 5:35:35	It's within the realm of possibility that a "found" steed can fight with you.  The spell certainly doesn't say it can't fight with you.   The steed is listed as having an intelligence of 6, which means it would be an "independent mount" and have its own initiative and turns, so if you mounted it, it would take you where it wants to go, although you have a great rapport with it.  It would theoretically attack on its own turn and you would attack on yours.   One could consider the "seamless unit" thing to imply shared initiative, which would be helpful.   If you attack twice with your greatsword, hitting, and using Divine Smite twice (2nd level + 1st level slot), you would get 5d8 bonus damage.  If you also cast searing smite, you would get another 1d6.  So yeah, if you "Divinely" smote twice and then searing smote once, you would get 5d8 + 1d6 bonus damage.   Your Greatsword attacks would deal a base of 2d6+5 each.   Your total damage would be 5d8 + 5d6 + 10.   If you factor in the horse attack, then you could potentially deal 5d8 + 7d6 + 14   (2d6 greatsword, 2d6 greatsword, 2d6 warhorse, 1d6 searing smite).   You'd be pretty tapped after that for a while, though.
#7 Danny_Montanny Sep 12, 2014 5:36:25	If you're super smite-happy, consider picking up some Sorcerer levels. It'll give you full caster levels, so a faster track to more and higher level slots, as well as the ability to turn your sorcery points into even more slots. Smite to your hearts content.
(Reply to #7) 2Chlorobutanal	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#9 durntaur Sep 12, 2014 12:31:27	As an aside, at L4, how do you have a 20 STR? 15 (array) + 2 (race) +2 (ASI) = 19
#10 Lanatir Sep 12, 2014 12:42:22	Am i the only one thinking that multiclassing paladin and warlock sounds wrong??
#11 Danny_Montanny Sep 12, 2014 13:24:30	An Oath of the Ancients Paladin wouldn't accept patronage from a powerful Fey creature? A Fiend couldn't dupe a goodly Paladin to accepting a deal? That's how they get most of their followers anyways. A Vengeance Paladin wouldn't seek out new power, be it good or evil, to help them in their quest?
#12 durntaur Sep 12, 2014 13:25:46	Lanatir wrote:
#13 Nachturnus Sep 12, 2014 13:41:35	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #13) 2Chlorobutanal	Nachturnus wrote:
#15 Nachturnus Sep 12, 2014 22:04:02	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#16 2Chlorobutanal Sep 13, 2014 5:04:03	The idea of "generic spell slots" comes from the multiclassing rules in chapter 6 of the PHB which state that a multiclass character uses the spell slot table in chapter 6 instead of their classes' spell slots.  So what class do those spell slots belong to?   What do you use to make your assumption that a sorcerer can "create spell slots for other classes?"
#17 Nachturnus Sep 13, 2014 9:42:23	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#18 dwgautier Sep 13, 2014 9:49:34	I thought the whole multi class spell slot agrument was put to bed.  You can use any spell slot with any class you have dipped into.  A 2nd lvl pally 9th lvl sorc could use a 5th lvl spell slot to cast Cure Wounds... so that was a 5th lvl spell slot used to cast a pally spell even though you only have 2 levels of paladin.  Spell slots are spell slots, even though it says 'paladin spell slot' in the smite discription it doesnt matter when you multi class becaue your spell slots are one and the same between your shared classes.
#19 2Chlorobutanal Sep 13, 2014 18:46:49	That's more or less why I said it was open to interpretation.  One could interpret it both ways.  There are still class features, such as a Valor Bard's Battle Magic, that don't work with multi-class spells.  It may be possible that Smites are intended to somehow work with Paladin spell slots only, even though it seems odd.  Then again, it may be the case that the "class of the spell slot" is   Nachturnus wrote: