If a shadowm monk casts pass without trace and uses invisibility class ability does he essentially becom undetectable provide he doesnt physically run into someone.
Invisible - "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves"
Pass without trace - "...A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage."
So can't be seen, leaves no tracks, no trace of passage (includes noise) = Auto stealth
Legit?
Wouldn't the creature still make sound, though?
In any case if you are not hidden, people will still know where you are even if you leave no traces and are invisible. As hidden is the only status that has such effect. However, if you are already hidden, being invisible and moving without a trace certainly will make it almost impossible for someone to even just guess your position correctly.
Rya.Reisender wrote:
No, you still make noise even with pass without trace. You're saying that noise as you walk for example is somehow left behind as a trace of your passage. This doesn't make sense. You still make noise while walking around even while inivisible and with pass without trace. IF you really want to no longer make noise, just roll a stealth check and hide. Being invisible you can do so freely and with the combination of pass without trace, an invisible hidden creature really can't be detected since the only means left to someone would be to look for tracks (which aren't there!). So all you need to do is roll stealth to hide to get the effect you want.
You still need to roll though because the roll determines the DC to detect you should something happen such as pass without trace, invis or hidden being removed somehow.
Noctaem wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
I don't think that auto success is supported by the rules for an officially defined action, but leaving no traces certainly would warrant advantage at making your location unknown.
I would say that PWT muffled sound but doesn't negate it entirely.
An invisible, silenced, pwt character might well be undetectable though.
jaelis wrote:
The spell is already good, there is no need to make it do more than it says it does. +10 stealth is a lot, there is no need to let it give advantage also.
It does make someone under the effects of both really difficult to find. Sound works, unless you use the spell silence as well. Once that is up, about all that is left is scent. While Pass Without Trace would prevent tracking by scent, something close enough to actually smell you, not your trail, will still be able to find you.
Godwyn wrote:
Godwyn wrote:
jaelis wrote:
seriously.
My shadow monk8/rogue1 got +12 stealth(basic) with passage without trace he got +20, with the elvencloak he got advantage on hsi roll and everyone trying to see him got disavantage.
My passive stealth is 37. Even tiamat herself need to search for me, since her passive perception is only 21 (26-5 from disavantage).
Because of the rule that if something is certain no need to roll for it, the DM already give me automatic hide, So I do have auto hide now unless the opponent are actively looking for me (and even then many opponent do not have +17 perception require to see me if they roll a 20). Soon I might even be able to have auto hide without using passage without trace
Well yes, if your modifier is already higher than all of the opponents' passive values, then there's no need to roll because you'd even succeed on a 1 (unless we rule that 1 is always fail).
This is all circumstantial. Cloak of Shadows requires you must be in dim light or darkness to remain invisible. Still, if you want to go undetected you must be both unseen and unheard. The +10 to Dexterity (Stealth) checks will help go you unheard, but I wouldn't say gives you a 100%. It's definitely a potent combo, but must be taken and adjudicated on a case by case basis.
I also feel that there's a huge disassociation between the rules and logic for a lot of people when it comes to stealth and hiding. People are looking for the concrete answer when there is absolutely no way there is one that fits for all, or even most for that matter, situations.
Godwyn wrote:
p3ck wrote:
Invisibility already give you the possibility to do a stealth check. Without Invisibility you wouldn't have 100% concealment so you wouldn't be allowed to roll stealth.
Invisibility already give you a huge bonus bigger then any advantage roll you can do. It make something that was impossible (hide in plain sight) into something possible.
Then pass without trace add an additional +10 this is big enought.
like I mention, if you take time to add the number you probably already have auto success since it's amost impossible for anyone other then a wisdom base player or tiamat herself to perceive you.
and if you add on top of all that if you get seen you shadow step 60ft and hide again, good luck to anyone to see and take time to react lol.
Sorsohka wrote:
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
If you play that an invisible creature anyways has advantage on stealth checks then sure, I wouldn't take that away if you also have PWT. But if you don't then I wouldn't say PWT gives it to you, you get the bonus instead.
Being invisible is the same as standing behind a wall. You don't get advantage on stealth when hiding behind a wall.
PWT gives you +10, which already represents the muffling of sounds and footprints.
I could see giving advantage with silence under most circumstances.
jaelis wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Well yes, if you have darkvision being in light obscurement won't let someone hide... That's obvious. But if you don't have darkvision then someone can in fact hide from you by default post errata.
p3ck wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
no she wouldn't get advantage since invisibilty simply allow you to stay hidden even in plain sight. the same way that a tiefling draogn sorcerer weilding a firestaff do not have triple resistance fire, the invibisile rogue running in the shadow of the forest behind trees, so not gain advantage. Unless the guard get distracted by the deer. If the shadow int he forest a big enought to cast dim light, and the guard have no torch and no darkvision, dim light already give them penalty on perception, no need to add advantage on stealth.
So if in the middle of the wood there was a clearing. PC#1 would have to go around the clearing while PC #2 can keep running throught if he stay invisible.
p3ck wrote:
mellored wrote:
p3ck wrote:
PWT does not remove sound and noise. What lawrence pointed to earlier in the thread was fluff text he was choosing to use as a justification for saying PWT also removes sound. It does not, just like PWT does not also "cloak you in a veil of shadows" meaning you have dim light / complete darkness just because you cast the spell. You still make sound with PWT. Just roll stealth to not make sound.
jaelis wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
p3ck wrote:
Thanks all for the responses. So seems that invisibilty only affects the conditions in which you can hide i.e. in plain sight.
I can live with with that based on RAW but still find it completely counterintuitive. I would have thought being invisible would SIGNIFICANTLY increase your chances to stealth/hide as sight is is one of the primary ways to detect someone/something. That also leads onto things like casting silence on yourself ... why no advantage on stealth? Hell, Invisible AND SIlent .... nope ... still no advantage by RAW
p3ck wrote:
Yep. If you're in a situation where sight is particularly important, then I'd grant advantage for being invisible. In some cases I might just say you can't be detected with no rolls required.
But I don't see that PWT has any particular bearing on that. Might be a difference in how we think of the spell... I do think PWT lets you disturb your environment in a potentially visible way, I just don't think any trace of the disturbance remains after your passage.
what about unsmelled, and unoticed air currents, untremorsensed, untelepathed? there's more to it then sight and sound.
+10 will let you pass by all but the most perceptive. it's a very big bonus, just not perfect.
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
mellored wrote:
remember 5e is suppose to be very simple. If they would word Invisibility this way:
You are invisible, you gain advantage against creature who use mainly vision to see you, and you have no special bonus against creature who use mainly sound, taste, smell, touch to find there prey. If a creature use more then 1 sense you do not gain advantage since the creature can really on different sense. If the invisibility spell is used in combinaison with PWT and silence then you have automatic success on your stealth check, except if the creature have some special senses like a snake chemical detection, shark eletrical detection, tremorense, blindsense etc... If only 2 of those spell are use in combinaison, then grat advantage, once again except if....
Then copy paste this on PWT, Silence, and other invisibility related spell.
so it's simpler to say: invisibility allow you to hide in plain sight. Then the DM is empower to judge what is the effect of the combinaison of spells.
If the DM judge that a certain creature have a special sense the DM can adjudicated what happen
If the DM judge that a certain combinaison allow a bonus then you (and the monster) receive the bonus.
But the DM need to make those decision knowing the rules:
by RAW invisibility grant the ability to hide in plain sight, advantage on all attack even if the target know where you are, and disavantage on all attack done against him even if the attacker know where he is.
By RAW PWT only grant +10 steath (already including all the effect of PWT within that +10) and the protection against non magical tracking
By RAW Silence block every sound from existing within the area, and prevent verbal component.
now if there is any interaction between a combinaison of those spell and the creatures, that is completly up to the DM to adjudicate those synergy, since they are not cover by the game.
mellored wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
If they wanted the spell to have any interactions with the mechanics of the game other than +10 to Dexterity (Stealth) checks, then they would've included it. Treating it like a 60 ft diameter Silence spell, a spell of the same level, while creating a 60 ft radius of dim light is not what the spell is intended for. If it was, it would have easily been in the errata or printed that way originally.
Coredump00 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
So if you were to cast Pass Without Trace, hide outside of an Orc encampment and then shout, "Man, these guys are ugly!" None of the Orcs would hear you?
Danny_Montanny wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
The word silence evokes no sound at all. I'm just trying to make sure that's not what we're talking about. Muted or dulled I can see, but complete silence? I don't think so.
posineg wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
the intent of the spell is to give you +10 stealth roll and impossible to track without magica help.
Tracking is not equal to pinpoint.
Tracking is 10 minute after you walk there, a ranger following your footstep in the mud, following the broken branch, following the piece of clothing the briarbush riped from your tunic etc... WIth the spell all those think cannot be done, you leave to footstep in the mud, you break to branch, and briarbush do not tear little pieces of your tunic.
But if the ranger use magical power to track you and reach you, he can do a perception check against the fighter who go disavantage and +9 stelath bonus. If the ranger succeed on his perception, then he can fight you very effectively.
The intend was not to create a spell level 2 creating a 60ft range silence spell affecting only the desired target without any save and move with the targets. when Silence is also a spell level 2 that affect everyone (no smart choice of who get affected) is immoveable and only have a 20ft radius.
If PWT do give you a total silence, then I'l ast it on my enemy spellcaster, since in a silence they cannot cast spel with verbal component, and unlike the silence spell, PWT will move with them so they cannot simply walk outside the range of the spell.
I think the sanest thing to do with PWT is ignore the "shadows and silence" part of the spell as just flavor text explaining the +10 to stealth checks. Otherwise you run into all sorts of problems like having PWT characters unable to speak and radiating visible darkness that could indeed give them away.
Guard 1: "Well... I dont' see any creatures coming but there is that really suspicious blob of unnatural shadow that seems to coming towards us."
Guard 2: "Yeah... maybe we should sound the alarm."
lawrencehoy wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
So I see. It wasn't the definition of the two words taken out of the context of the rest of the spell that mattered, it was the interpretation of one of the others. Got it.
Nothing says a veil must be semi-transparent and not completely opaque. But... whatever gets you by.
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Point being, I think that to hinge the interpretation of the whole spell on one word in the descriptive section of the spell doesn't seem like a smart thing to do. The spell dictates how it interacts with the game, any reasoning you can come up with how that happens is fine, so long as that interaction stays constant. It's magic, after all, who the hell really knows how it works?!
I just think it's odd that you would give up your vehemently defended "silence" on the pretense of a much more interpretive word as "veil".
So if I want to say you don't leave behind any tracks because you don't actually touch the ground, who's to say that's not true? Does it really matter? If you want to say it completely silences all of your activity (No casting spells with somatic components, or is it just that anyone not affected by the spell wouldn't hear you?), fine, but it just didn't jive with me (but that's my choice). Especially in the context of the combo that was presented by the OP.
And now we're down to semantic arguments again... I'll just skip a few steps...
Hitler... 
mellored wrote:
+5 advantage to passive perception from being very quite and +5 advantage to passive perception from being hard to be seen does not equal + 10 passive perception.....
Advantages don't stack.
Oddly enough I'm with Nocatem on this one.
PWT is supposed to increase your passive perception by +10.
According to the spell it does so by making you harder to see and harder to hear, thus you get the "veil of shadows and silence" line. That's all that line means. It means you are magically harder to see and harder to hear.