Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 AndyDay Apr 06, 2015 9:21:14	Good morning,   One of the things that I've always hated about Rogues is that they don't get to sneak around. Or more concisely, they get to sneak around... all by themselves, rather than as part of a group. So they'd play their own game, like a Decker in Shadowrun, and it was just annoying. 'Lo,' I would think, 'if only they could sneak with their group!'   Enter Pass Without Trace, the group sneak spell. I got what I wished for... and then some. Turns out this thing is horrible.   With the way 5E limits modifiers, giving +10 is nearly equivalent to giving automatic success on a test. Between this and my rather liberal allowance on stealth tests, I find my players able to sneak into anywhere they want to go.   Perhaps the issue is that I'm too forgiving with stealth tests. I allow the rogue to hide in almost any circumstance (since my settings almost always have adequate cover for him to hide). With respect to overland movement, trees and such provide adquate enough cover. One thing I won't do is become a hard-ass with respect to cover and hiding, that's not my style. But perhaps I should become more strict on the application of the spell over time, since it's main limitation is time, for sure.   This isn't really a question, just a rant.
#2 FrogReaver Apr 06, 2015 9:57:55	AndyDay wrote:
#3 Kentus Apr 06, 2015 9:59:11	You know, that you can use group checks (PHB 175)? Means, that everyone in the group makes a check and if half of the players succeeded, the whole party succeeds. I use them for stealth, too.   You may ask why, but in the end, I see stealth more than just being silent and just being unseen. It's the art of knowing the right places to hide, to get the timing right and to avoid those paths, which will lead the party to step on a branch. So if the party says: The sneaky guy goes ahead and always leads us one at a time from one spot to another, I see no problems in using this rule.   This means that actually having a stealthy character helps, but that only one or two heavy armors don't automatically fail your party performance. Try it, you will see, that your party will be much bolder with this rule and succeed in glory or fail in a comedic way. ;)
#4 Coredump00 Apr 06, 2015 11:51:53	Well.... the spell says that a 'veil of darkness' emenates from you... which may mean that it only helps when a veil of darkness is not blatantly obvious. (That seems a bit harsh though....)     OTOH, remember that you only call for a roll when the outcome is uncertain.  I have a ranger with a Cloak of Elvenkind.  Which means PwoT gives me +17 stealth, with advantage, and they have disadvantage on spotting me.....   Still doesn't mean I can just 'stealth' past two guards in the middle of the day.....   But yeah, it will help them sneak up on places....
#5 MasterNamer Apr 08, 2015 10:00:54	The veil of darkness part is a bit problematic. Depending on the lighting conditions and the vision of the enemies it may be blatantly obvious that something is up and that an alarm should be sounded or an attack started.
#6 Danny_Montanny Apr 08, 2015 13:31:50	Shadows, not darkness. Pretty big distinction in my opinion. The other big distinction is that you're not invisible. You can't hide when you're completely exposed with this spell. Moving from cover to cover, through appropriate terrain, or crowds of people are another thing, though. Even if you're briefly out in the open you shouldn't be seen, you're just another shadow among many. The biggest thing I would limit is movement rate. It restricts your movement to 20 ft per turn in order to move in stealth.
#7 Greenstone.Walker Apr 08, 2015 14:31:37	Additionally, there are lots of creatures that have Keen Senses. The party might be able to sneak up on the goblins, but the wolves will notice them.
#8 Barky Apr 08, 2015 14:39:39	This is a reason why it may be better to use Stealth as a contest vs. Perception instead of Passive Perception. Yes, +10 is a daunting advantage, but the enemy can always roll a crit.
#9 Danny_Montanny Apr 08, 2015 15:15:07	Barky wrote:
#10 Barky Apr 08, 2015 15:52:45	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#11 MasterNamer Apr 09, 2015 9:30:33	If the character isn't behind sufficient cover it wouldn't matter how high their stealth roll was.
#12 AndyDay Apr 09, 2015 10:59:38	~~ Kentus wrote:
#13 Byakugan01 Apr 09, 2015 23:48:51	Danny, are you aware that your profile pic is a picture of a psychotic ****?     The 'clown' from Hunter X Hunter.  Which is an awesome anime, but ewee...
#14 Danny_Montanny Apr 10, 2015 4:44:15	Byakugan01 wrote:
#15 Byakugan01 Apr 10, 2015 5:05:07	Yeah...but the Pedo-file part is pretty Ewee.
#16 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 10, 2015 10:09:50	Regarding those shadows, Pass Without Trace has historically been used to foil trackers and hunters, not slip through a zillion guards undetected. (Example: its 3e incarnation.) Thus, you use it when you're far enough away that your foes can't just "look" at you, so any visual display it provides is purely cosmetic. This is the first edition where it includes a stealth bonus.   Advantage on passive checks amounts to +5, not +10, so PwT is still really, really good even on advantage. However, there are plenty of places where Stealth flat-out isn't rolled - if there's no chance of success, you just don't roll. Examples include when someone's looking right at you or when there's nothing to hide behind that's big enough to hide you. PwT is more useful when muffling noises, by my reading, and it may also allow you to sneak past a guard dog without them smelling you (since scent is a trace of your passage).
#17 BRJN Apr 11, 2015 19:22:23	If you have a recurring villian, or somebody who can observe the PCs for a long time, they will figure out that they need a wide clear zone to protect themselves from the PCs sneaking in.  They might build themselves a countryside hideout that looks a lot like the 1600-era "star forts" with a big glacis in every direction.  Let's see your PCs Pw/oT over a well-manicured lawn with guards posted and a Continual Light lighthouse on your roof.   Also, geese make lots of noise when they are upset.  Bats have sonar.  Modrons have Truevision, if you can figure out a way to hire one of them.  Hound dogs have Scent.  Other un-natural creatures have senses that can pick up on the other signs of your PCs' passage. An Alarm variant with Detect Magic could be created to trigger when somebody affected by Pw/oT passes nearby.  Hire a GOO Warlock to use his Telepathy to listen for intruders' thoughts.  Nobody is going to get through a 2-foot-deep reflecting pool without making splashes and ripples in the water; a big-enough pool will extend beyond the range of Pw/oT's "you can't find me" field.   If your villians are all poor (or not paranoid enough), then nothing I said will help, alas.
#18 AndyDay Apr 15, 2015 13:00:44	Tempest_Stormwind wrote: