Does the 1d4 from the bonus attack granted by polearm master change to 1d8 via shillelagh?
IE do you do 1D8 and then 1D8 via polearm master shillelagh combination?
I checked and this was last talked about back in 2009 so the info is old. Any idea how it works now?
The relevant portion of the Shillelagh spell states that, "the weapon's damage die becomes a d8."
The relevant portion of Polearm Master states, "The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4, and the attack deals bludgeoning damage."
It appears to me that this is an example of specific trumping general; the spell appears to modify the weapon's damage die for general purposes, and the feat further modifies the weapon's damage die in a very specific circumstance. As such, it seems like this combination would result in d8 main attacks and d4 bonus attacks.
Thats what confuses me. Which do you treat as general and which as specific. It seems they are both specific and the general would the the basic stats for the quarterstaf 1D6 (versatile 1D8), The only general rule that is known is the stats for the quarterstaff. Both the spell and the feat are specific hence the confusion.
I see the confusion. The thing is that the spell doesn't do anything mechanically distinct from if the quarterstaff had a d8 damage die to begin with. The effect of the spell is essentially to amend the staff and club's weapon entries to give them a higher damage die.
Essentially, it doesn't matter whether the weapon's damage die was a d8 or it became a d8 from a spell, it would function with the Polearm Master feat identically in both situaitons.
This situation is something that sometimes comes up in Exception-based Rulesets.... The situation of two specific rules interacting. As such, it requires some degree of logical inference to figure out which rule is more specific than the other.
General: Quarterstaff is a d6 (versatile d8) weapon.
Specific: Polearm master grants an off-hand attack which deals d4 damage.
Specific: Shillelagh increases the weapon damage to d8.
The problem that is occuring is that people are parsing out sections of the rules as if they were separate interchangable features. Such is not the case.
A single bullet point should be read in its entirety, without substitution, based on the rules of english - which state that two sentences within a single paragraph (or bullet point) are fundamentally linked, and should be read together in order to maintain proper context.
This rule is especially important when interpreting a body of text with procedural rules, and documents containing bullet points (sequenced and/or non-sequenced).
Examples of such include:
- Legal Documents
- Instruction Manuals and Rulebooks
- Computer Programs
- Guidelines, etc
Even if this were not the case, people are forgetting the rules for Exception Based Design.
Exception Based Design Rules
When two rules interact, specific beats general (Hierachial interpretation). This means that one rule must specifically create an exception to the other. When two rules lack language creating specific exceptions to each other, both rules are granted equal weight.
- The rules for grapple and shove for example, are both specific rules which create exceptions to the Attack Action.
- Grapple and Shove however, are equally weighted rules, as neither one has language creating an exception to the other.
The same holds true for Polearm Master and Shillelagh.
That is a great explination of the order of looking at the issue.
Or, to put it more simply: This is a case of TWO instances of "Specific vs. General" or, what I like to call, "Specific vs. Specific." They don't happen often, but they exist (like improvised weapons, wild shape, stuff like that, where there's two open-ended or overlapping rules).
The case of specific vs. specific goes to the DM. And this DM says "Hey, you get to pick! Oh, what's that, you wanna pick the d8? Okay, sounds good!"
Ganymede425 wrote:
"Q: If I cast Shillelagh on my quarterstaff and have Polearm Master feat, does the bonus attack deal d4 or d8? A: The bonus attack would use a d4. I like it: druid master of polearms. -Jeremy Crawford"
from the developers sage advice Q&A
Very Good. Thank you.
I have the same situation at my table. Can this spell and staff combination be used with a shield, or does PoleArm Master require two hands? Having studied martial arts and sparred with a bo staff, a combatant can lose control of the staff if wielded with one hand and not counter-balanced with the other hand. Carrying a shield would make it impossible to two-hand wield the staff and get full benefit of specialized staff-fighting training. A bucker may be a different story as the hand is free. You must have the strap of the shield around the arm and the hand on the grip to control a standard shield whether wooden or metal... Any SCA fighters out there? What are your thoughts?
A quarterstaff does not require two hands. As such, you can definately use this combination with a quarterstaff and shield.
- Quarterstaff + Shillelagh: d8+ STR or WIS (versatile d8+STR/WIS)
- Polearm Master: bonus action quarterstaff 1d4+STR or WIS
- Shield: +2 AC
if you wish to allow you player to deal 1d8 damage with both you may
When you take the attack action with only a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4, and the attack deals bludgeoning damage.
the spell shillelagh states
the wood of a club or quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature's power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn't already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.
If we look at in this context we can either say that the second attack must be a 1d4, or we can say that the second attack's base damage is a D4
if the base damage is a d4 then as being an attack with a quarter staff becomes a d8. If we say it must be a d4 then it does not change.
Just remember that shillelagh takes a bonus action as well.
I think the solution to this can be infered entirely from the Polearm Mastery feat. The feat grants the bonus attack when the user is wielding a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff. These weapons have different damage codes that vary between d6 and d10. Despite this variance, the damage rating for the bonus attack is always a d4. We can determine then that the damage code associated with the bonus attack is independent of the damage code of the weapon being wielded; therefore increasing the damage of the base weapon has no effect on the damage of the bonus attack.
colemcm wrote:
Yes, but we're not talking about static modifiers. We're talking about the damage die of the base weapon. Shillelagh increases the damage die of the base weapon, but the bonus attacks damage die is independent of the damage of the base weapon.
colemcm wrote:
Making sure that things are clear is always a good thing. 
polearm master gives 1d4 weapon attack with the wooden end of the polearm. or the other wooden end of a quarterstaff.
a d4 wooden weapon is a club.
shillelagh gives club a d8 damage.
basically if your not narrowminded you could say that shillelagh gives 1d8 to any respectable piece of wood that could be used to hurt someone. even if you pick up a dead branch from the forrest floor 2-3ft in lenght I would say it's a good target for shillelagh. Atleast that is the spirit of the spell.
Shillelagh says specifially that it works on a club or quarterstaff., but Polearm Mastery doesn't say that it turns the end of the glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff into a club. It says you can make an attack with it as a bonus action that does d4 damage. That's all it says. You can houserule that the end of a polearm is a club, but that ruling only applies to your game.
Trance-Zg wrote:
Technically the branch of a tree is an improvised weapon, unless the DM rules that it's sufficiently club-like and sturdy enough to count as a club.
Noctaem wrote:
the entire concept will come down to how you choose to DM.
Are you a RAW is law DM, where no matter what you always go with exactly what it says in the rule book over using the DM discression to adjust the rules to the situation? If so then it only does 1D4
If you look at the rules and infer meaning to the interaction of the rules and use DM discression then it could be eithor.