Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daspian Jul 16, 2014 9:48:10	so with the starter set released i decided now would be an awesome opportunity for me to finally sit back as a Player, and let one of my Player's attempt his first-time DMing....now he was doing a great job and we had a blast, but somet things came up that had me wondering, that we were confused about and i (and the player who was having the issue) were arguing against... both these issues happened in two seperate encounters but were similar, and the reason we argued them alot, is because my friend (the DM) is trying to over-analyze the game and assert logic into a game... i understand logically some things should happen but its still a game...so anyways here is what happened...     Encounter 1   goblins hiding in the woods, i (The Wizard) spot them and uncover two of them, i then cast Sleep in the area, and put them to sleep.... however the DM then says they are still hidden even though they are unconcscious and we had just spotted them, allowing me to cast sleep in that area? not to mention he thinks Stealth and Hide are two seperate things... ( we're both still confused on the stealth/hide rules)..... this mean't my rogue friend couldn't run up and sneak attack them at all ( even though he was only 15 ft away...)   Encounter 2 ( the real problem   we found a room with a guard post and 3 dogs chained to it... DM said that rogue's can't attempt to hide because the dog's can smell him? i don't know if there are rules to smelling, but my rogue friend made a stealth check of 23... and pretty much had an amazing stealth check after hiding. any attempts to go back to hiding the DM rebuffed saying the dog's have your scent, idk about this simply asking, mainly because i noticed the entire game my rogue friend only performed his sneak attack twice, i feel like the stealth/hide mechanics are foggy and need to be clarified for my DM friend, otherwise my rogue friend will just feel well....underwhelming.   anways, if someone can clearly explain the stealth/hide mechanics or perhaps simplify it, also explaining if there is such a thing as "smelling" i mean wouldn't that just fall under perception, not two seperate things, cause logically if creatures had a heightened sense of smell and could just smell anyone, wouldn't that mean invisibility and stealth are out the window since that dog or demon can smell that assassin or wizard in invisibility?
#2 Jenks Jul 16, 2014 10:20:33	I shall examine the stealth/hide rules thoroughly and get back to you.    Also, I believe that logic is a fine place to go if you can't figure something out with the RAW.
#3 Crimson_red Jul 16, 2014 11:21:27	There is technically, as far as I can tell, no difference between Stealth and Hide. Though it could be said, to hide you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check, I might say Stealth is the skill used while Hide is the action taken.    I'm assuming in the first encounter, you spotted the goblins but the rogue did not? If so the Goblins would still be hidden from your companion, and there may even be a surprise round where you and Goblins can act, but the Rogue cannot. On your turn you could direct the Rogue to the approximate location of the Goblins, which depending on how well covered by brush they are, could reveal them to him without taking an action for a Wisdom (Perception) check. This seems a reasonable adjudication of the rules and within the encounter's narrative.   As for the next enounter, the Wolf has their hightened hearing and smell included in their stat block (granting advantage), this means either they can increase their passive Perception by +5 (assuming nothing counters their advantage) or make a Wisdom (Perception) check with advantage (same assumptions). In the former case, your friend would have succeeded, but in the latter, he could have been detected by the wolves, although unlikely. I'd have made the Wolves roll actively, they're starving and waiting for something edible to wander within reach.   As far as I can tell, without further reading, this advice follow the rules.   Some of the best advice I can give about using Stealth, for both player and GM, is be mindful of the internal logic of the narrative. For instance, your DM won't let the Rogue reattempt his Stealth check against the wolves "because they have his scent," though not part of the rules, this is a logical consequence of failling his initial Dexterity (Stealth) check within the confines of the narrative -the starved wolves have smelled him and are on alert.    As for using stealth, in order to hide you must be out of sight of those you're hiding from. This means something like being concealed by a tree or obscured by heavy brush or fog. Even after you are out of sight you still need to make your Dexterity (Stealth) check, to insure that they don't hear you because your dashing through the bush, or smell you because you inadvertantly hid upwind of them. How you attack can be a factor too, it doesn't help to hide if you immediately pounce out of cover and charge 30ft, they'll see you coming, but if you wait until their back is turned and slide up behind them while they make their way to the wizard, you're golden. This is sort of what I mean by using the internal logic of the narrative, let it inform you decision making and description, particularly if you are playing "Theatre of the Minds Eye" instead of on a battle mat. I think this is why the Stealth rules are left vague, to better facilitate this type of gameplay, unfortunately they failed to give any examples, leaving many DMs and players unsure of themselves.   As for the Rogue's Sneak Attack, he has other avenues for getting Advantage, such as a companion using the Help action to encourage that heavy hit, or perhaps taking a Charisma (Persuasion) check to goad someone off their guard. You don't even need advantage, if you are attacking a taget that is within 5ft of an enemy. There are alot of means for getting that bonus damage if you use the setting and narrative to your advantage. Note, I'm not say game the system or the DM, but encouraging roleplaying.
#4 obsid Jul 16, 2014 12:12:22	1) Hide and stealth are different.  Hide is the action you take (it takes a full action to do), in which you attempt to start acting stealthly.  Stealth is a skill, once you are sneaking around you are using that skill. 2) An unconscious person can not use any skills, the goblins should no longer be stealthed if they fall asleep.  That said if they were in an area that was heavily concealing them it wouldnt matter if they were acting stealthly as you just couldnt see them.  In this case, as you could see them, once they fell unconscious then your friend should be able to see them (assuming there isnt something blocking your friends sight that isnt blocking yours).  Even if they were conscious and still sneaking around, you could tell your friend where they are, approximately, and if he got close enough that they didnt have cover anymore, they would be seen without a perception check needed.     3) The stats for a dog as of the last playtest are as follows: Dog Small beast, unaligned Armor Class 10 Hit Points 5 (1d6 – 1) Speed 50 ft. Str 6 (–2) Dex 10 (+0) Con 9 (–1) Int 2 (–4) Wis 12 (+1) Cha 7 (–2) Skills Perception +2 Special Senses low-light vision Keen Hearing and Smell: When using its sense of hearing or smell, the dog has advantage on Intelligence (Search) and Wisdom (Perception) checks. Actions Bite-Melee Attack. –1 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature). Hit: 1 (1d4 – 2) piercing damage.  As you can see the only difference between a dog and a person is the dog gets advantage on its perception checks.  That said you cant hide if you are seen.  You need to get out of line of sight of the dogs before you can attempt to hide.
#5 lawrencehoy Jul 16, 2014 22:59:59	Hide (hiding) is an Action that requires a Dexterity (Stealth) check. That is the connection between the two. You can make Dexterity (Stealth) checks that have nothing to do with the Hide action (or hiding); but, to hide (take the Hide action) requires a Dexterity (Stealth) check, even if it is just to set the DC for Passive Perception checks later.   Encounter 1: Your wizard could inform his rogue ally, as to the general location of the sleeping goblins; then, the rogue could go to that location and find the goblins, possibly requiring an Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Perception) check. Once the rogue finds the goblins, he can make his Sneak Attack(s).   Encounter 2: As has been said, the dogs' sense of smell is accounted for in their Advantage to Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) checks.   Although, I would treat a dog's (kanine's) sense of smell the same as most creatures' sense of sight, in reference to detecting hidden/invisible creatures/objects with a scent. In other words, I would say that you can't hide from a dog that can smell you. I would also give them a flat bonus of +5 to their Perception skill, when involving their sense of smell.   NOTE: I'd do the same for felines, in regard to their sense of hearing and creatures/objects that make sounds (even minor sounds).
#6 Faust23 Jul 17, 2014 1:49:49	I found it tactically advantageous to use the hide action to gain protection from attackers and also gain Advantage on my attack from hiding.  Unfortunately, I learned this from the Goblins who almost TPK'd us......