Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Dersu Jul 16, 2015 4:57:27	So something came up the other night regarding ambushes.   In our party we have two characters with the Alert feat. In the middle of combat in an orc camp, our sorcerer, who does not have alert, walked forward to unleash a cone of cold. Before he could cast an orc assasin popped out of the bushes and unleshead three attacks all with advantage and laden with poison that did 7d6 damage with a con save for no damage, bringing the sorc critically low. The orc then rolled initiative and due to it's roll got to act  imeadiately after thie sorc finished his turn which brought the sorcerer to 4 hp.    Now standing 5 feet away form the sorc were both characters with the alert feat one of which is a Barbarian with feral instincts.   Aparantly this orc assasin rolled a 30 for it's stealth check. Which is why no one was able to detect it as we had all performed perception checks before aproaching the camp.   So I guess my questions are these: Was the initiative order for the assasin handled correctly? And what real benefit does Alert give in a party setting if other members can still be surprised?   I am pretty sure the DM expected us to fail this encounter so he could take us captive as we are only level 12 and the enemies were around level 18, an orc mage cast time stop... but we did manage to survive, sorc inlcuded.
#2 jaelis Jul 16, 2015 5:23:06	Dersu wrote:
#3 SlippyNapkins Jul 16, 2015 6:14:44	1) No, the initiative order was not handled correctly.  The non-suprised characters should have rolled initiative and been able to act the same round as the assassin (barbarian has to rage to act that round).  The chance to be suprised for characters without Alert/Feral Instinct was totally valid given the assassin was waiting in ambush.   Surprise can be really nasty with 5e's emphasis on action economy.  The DM should definitely not ignore specific abilities that exist to counter it.   2) The benefit of Alert in a party setting is that character can react to the threat and potentially neutralize it (e.g a wizard with Alert could cast Hold Person on that assassin).
#4 Bloodscythe Jul 16, 2015 7:22:19	Dersu wrote:
#5 Coredump00 Jul 16, 2015 7:54:32	Bloodscythe has the right of it.     It sounds like you were actively *in combat* when this all went down. If so, there is no rules support for Surprise at that point. Strictly speaking, the assassin would likely have only had advantage on the first attack, since he would then no longer be hidden. Though it is possible he could still be unseen (invis, darkness, etc.) and would still get advantage. The Assassin would have gone on his own init step... he could have readied an action.  Keep in mind, neither MultiAttack nor Extra Attack work with Readied actions.     That said... the rules can not possibly cover all the possible situations.  As a Ruling, I would have probably skipped Surprise, but given full attacks, not sure about advantage or not.
#6 Noctaem Jul 16, 2015 11:40:32	Dersu wrote:
#7 Dersu Jul 16, 2015 13:28:49	The initative roll for the Assasin occured after he was revealed. We are playing with the google hangouts Roll20 app, and the iniative roll was rolled after the damage rolls to the sorcerer.   I can see now what should have happened. Essentially the only time a surprise round can happen is before combat ensues.   With two memebers of the party having the Alert feat however, that would prevent those individuals from becoming surprised and being able to act normally along with the attacking force.   So then it becomes a matter of determining in what order the characters and npcs act during the surprise round, which can be handled by having everyone involved in the combat roll initiative, even if they are not going to act during the surprise round. Then, during the suprise round, use initiative rolls as per normal but just skip everyone who was caught flat footed.   Then once the first round of normal combat begins, start at the top of the initiative order and proceed as normal.   As for seeing hidden enemies, yeah I guess that is entirely within the DM's discretion as to whether a character is even detectable or not. I have tried building my barbarian to be a bit of a party scout. He's also a grappler/tank. I took one level in rogue to get expertise in athletics and percpetion, took the aspect of the eagle, and acquired a rod of alertness. I am thinking about taking the observant feat as well which would take my passive perception from 24 to 32 with the ability score increase and the profficiency increase at level 13. I am not sure if it is worth though if the DM always has the option to just say, "he was like hiding really REALLY good."   But at least now I can force those assasins to surprise us early or not at all.   Thanks for all of the informative responses.
#8 BoldItalic Jul 16, 2015 16:15:48	Nearly right, except that there is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e. No attacks or other combat actions occur before the first round. Surprise is not a bonus that one side gets that allows it to make attacks before the first round, it is a penalty that may affect some creatures during the first round itself.   Also, the assassin should not have been able to make three attacks as a reaction out of its turn. Whether it had prepared a readied action or was making an attack of oportunity, it would only get one single attack there and then.
#9 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 3:39:53	BoldItalic wrote:
#10 BoldItalic Jul 17, 2015 4:17:52	Noctaem wrote:
#11 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 6:50:31	BoldItalic wrote:
#12 BoldItalic Jul 17, 2015 7:03:57	MM p.11
#13 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 7:24:27	BoldItalic wrote:
(Reply to #13) Bloodscythe	Noctaem wrote:
#15 Coredump00 Jul 17, 2015 8:02:34	Extra Attack lets you do multiple attacks *on your turn* Multi Attack lets you do multiple attacks *on your turn*   If a creature/NPC readies an action, they are no longer *doing* that action on their turn.... thus the condition for multi attack no longer exists.  The creature is free to Ready a multi-attack, but it the reaction does not trigger on his turn... he does not get multiple attacks.  Since he *only* has permission for the extra attacks on his turn.
#16 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 8:12:30	That may be his point but it doesn't matter to the discussion.  That's like saying "a creature that can open doors on its turn has the Object Interaction ability".  And then taking that phrase and saying you can only open doors on your turn.  It's an incorrect logical leap to make, just because the rule says that a creature can do something on its turn and then because of that grants an Action (see below) doesn't mean that that something can ONLY be done on its turn.  Bad reasoning there.   And to be clear, the Multi Attack Action is listed under the Action tab of a monster's stat block, by the logic being suggested, all the things under the Action section is an ability since they don't differ from one to the next and don't specify which is which.  The only explanation comes from calling it an ability, an ability isn't defined.  It just means what the word means:  possession of the means or skill to do something.   Ready action doesn't say you can't ready multi attack, multi attack only says that you can't multi attack with an OA which is a defined game term and is different from the Ready Action defined game term.   Ready Action can be used to ready any action that the creature can do during its turn outside of those which specifically state that they cannot be used outside of their turn or with the ready action (if those even exist).  Extra Attack specifically says that you can't use the feature outside of your turn.  Multi attack does not in any way whatsoever.  You would need to show that there's a specific rule that says it can't be used for Ready Action.  IF you can't then the general rule applies and you can.   There's a huge difference between Extra Attack saying and I paraphrase here "you can use the extra attack feature on your turn" and the multi attack rule saying "a creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the multi attack ability".  These sentences do not mean the same thing people.   EDIT:  There is no condition in the multi attack text coredump.  All it does is explain why some monsters have multi attack and why others don't.  Some can make multiple attacks during their turns and some can't.  Just like Paladins get the Extra Attack feature and rogues don't.
#17 jaelis Jul 17, 2015 8:10:54	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #16) Bloodscythe	Noctaem wrote:
#19 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 8:13:39	jaelis wrote:
#20 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 8:16:51	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #17) Bloodscythe	jaelis wrote:
(Reply to #20) Bloodscythe	Noctaem wrote:
#23 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 8:23:22	can I just say again that the whole design philosophy for 5e being very "laissez faire" annoys me to no end?  Why couldn't they just put it in the Mutli Attack rule entry "you can only use this feature on your turn".  Like... make it clear damnit!!!  lol
#24 jaelis Jul 17, 2015 8:32:25	Bloodscythe wrote:
#25 jaelis Jul 17, 2015 8:33:02	Noctaem wrote:
#26 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 8:38:13	jaelis wrote:
#27 Noctaem Jul 17, 2015 8:38:24	jaelis wrote:
(Reply to #24) Bloodscythe	jaelis wrote: