Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xeviat-DM Apr 27, 2015 21:25:00	Hey there everyone. I'm finally getting into the swing of 5E. I've run a few low level sessions (and found battles to be too swingy for my groups). I assume this will go away later. I'm thrilled with the concept of bounded accuracy, though a few of my players worry that their numbers won't advance fast enough to make them feel like they're growing (yet 4E's numbers advanced so fast that it felt like a treadmill ... go figure).   I've been playing with the monster building guidelines, hoping to get a feel for where the game likes numbers to be (so I don't do anything rediculous that I have to backtrack on to avoid ruining my players' fun). As I've been fiddling with things, I noticed a few things that stood out to me. Have you noticed these? How do these make the game feel?   Monster AC begins at 13 and scales up to 19; that's an increase of +6 over the 20 levels. This matches up perfectly with PC's gaining +4 to their proficiency bonuses and +2 to their attack score (assuming point buy and starting with a 16 or 17 in your attack score). In fact, monster AC goes up at CRs 4, 5, 8, 10, 13, and 17; the first two ability score bumps are at 4 and 8, and the proficiency boosts are at 5, 9, 13, and 17. Seems intentional.   Monster Attack begins at +3 and scales up to +10 by CR 20 (and it keeps going after that, wow). This does not match up with player AC growith; in fact, player AC only grows by 2 for most characters (2 Dex bumps for the light wearers, maybe 1 Dex bump and 1 armor upgrade for the mediums, and 2 armor upgrades for the heavies); Barbarians and Monks have some opportunity for more AC boosts.   So, player Attack seems to start around +5 vs AC 13 and it scales perfectly. Player AC starts anywhere between 10 (more likely 12) up to 18 (chain mail and a shield), and then it only grows by +2 (at best).   Before I looked at these numbers, I expected ACs to scale slower than Attack bonuses, since HP grow fast, but I didn't expect monster attack vs. player AC growth to outstrip player attack to monster AC growth. Something seems off about this.   Could this be because player ACs are so inflated at 1st level? A starting AC of 14 seems to be the floor for PCs, with 15s and 16s not seeming far out of reach. I could see how this decision could have been made; player HP at 1st level is low, so high ACs protect them. But doesn't this lead to the very swinginess that I was feeling (a monster rolls high and someone drops)? I do understand the designers wanting some baselines to make sense (a hit from a sword should probably greviously injure a 1st level character, so thus players need more defense to protect them), but maybe there's another way to come about this?   Mostly, this is me musing and theory crafting. My group has already decided to add Con score to HP at first level, but now I'm questioning if I should pair that with a minor attack bonus at low levels to balance that out?
#2 Rya.Reisender Apr 27, 2015 23:58:51	One of our level 1 fighters actually has AC 19 (defensive combat style).   And I'm pretty sure AC can raise a lot more than just +2 to level 20. Let's say that level 1 fighter above with 19 AC becomes a level 20 fighter with Plate+3 armor. That would be 24 AC. That's an increase of +5.   But just looking at these numbers isn't fair anyway. The group usually works together. It will have party members that can use buffs. Those buffs are getting stronger and stronger. You have to consider this too. It might even be the biggest factor.   Monsters generally grow faster than heroes in HP and damage, but that's compensated by to synergy effects of the group.   Also, E5 is quite different in terms of damage than previous editions. In E5 from first level to last level, every monster on your CR is able to drop you to 0 HP in one hit if lucky. Yet, you won't constantly die. You will be unconscious and can be instantly healed by a normal healing spell. Even if no healing spell is available you can be stabilized and then just need to wait to be back again. It seems quite deadly, but really dropping the whole group to 0 HP is actually still quite hard even if I use my best strategies as DM.
#3 AndrewJO Apr 28, 2015 1:55:20	You're not taking into account magic items. That's a potential +3 to AC and to hit, more if you have multiple items that stack(+3 armor and +3 shield, + 3 bow and +3 arrows, misc rings, cloaks, etc)
#4 Rhenny Apr 28, 2015 4:11:08	Interesting observations.   I think this is the design principles in action:  as pcs gain levels their ac doesn't go up so much but their ability to do more and more (multi attack, more devistating spells or other abilities) does increase.  Therefore, they can fight more dangerous creatures, which will damage them and feel more dangerous, but they will have the potential to make quick work of the encounter because they have the firepower.  If they are unlucky, and their attacks miss more often, or their spells are resisted, difficulty (prolonged combat) increases.  It is the randomness that makes it exciting.
#5 mellored Apr 28, 2015 5:37:46	Accuracy increases, but hit points increase faster then damage.      At low level, you can't take many hits (2 hits), but you arn't likely to be hit (40% chance to be hit). At high level, you can take more hits (4 hits), but are more likely to be hit (80% chance to be hit).   Meaning less swingy, but you can survive the same number of attacks (well, monsters, since multi-attack) as you level.     Level 1 is an outlier, since you almost double your HP at level 2.
#6 Xeviat-DM Apr 28, 2015 19:23:52	I was purposefully ignoring magic items, as time and time again it's been told to me that the system math doesn't require it.   It's very interesting, really. I'm not willing to fiddle with the system until we get to play more. It was more an observation about the mechanics of growth in this edition, and I wanted to see what other people thought it felt like at the higher levels.   I find it interesting that your chance to hit monsters doesn't increase automatically with level, as their AC scales perfectly. I'm curious why that is? Though the monster attack bonus does seem to normalize closer to what the PC attack bonus vs. AC looks like, as monsters start with lower attack bonuses than players.
#7 Rya.Reisender Apr 28, 2015 23:35:11	Yeah you don't require it as in, it's not game breaking to only have 40% block instead of 55% block. All the special abilities and spells (and of course strategy) have a much larger impact on the outcome of the battle.   And your chance to hit increases automatically by leveling through your increased proficiency bonus.   In E5 they simply wanted to make characters grow a bit slower, so that the gap between a few levels isn't that huge, allowing for a more open-world focused play (because you aren't limited by difficulty as much).
(Reply to #6) sandvirm	Xeviat-DM wrote: