Here is a example of combat..
Monster / NPC's know PC's are camping in a area..
5 NPC Mages...
Something has to initiate the combat..
So Mage one .. Cast a Lightnihgt Bolt into the PC's Camp..
While the other 4 Ready there action on mage 1's Lightning Bolt..
So.. ZAP, PC's take 1st lightning Bolt
Non of the PC's are surprised, all have Alert Feat..
So , roll initiative..
PC all roll higher than the attacking NPC's..
But because they readied the lightning bolt.. the PC's Take the 4 other Lightning Bolts before
they can even go off...
Thought? And Yes we had this something like this happen..
The initiative action of the combat would be the moment, mage 1 is somehow perceivable for one or more PC. Most likely when the first syllable of the lightning bolt is spoken. So this would normally the surprise round, but with Alertness the PCs are not surprised, so actually there will be initiative even before the first lignting bolt strikes.
vamp70 wrote:
well, was only a example.. what happened..
PC's where sleeping in offtime in Lemond tiny Hut, trust no one..
So the invisable (Greater Invisable) Priest DD'd into our room.. then before Initiative .. Cleric Cast Dispel on our Hut.
THe Mage flying outside the window readied a lightning Bolt on the Cleric Dispeling the Hut.
We rolled Initiative , and 2 PC's rolled higher than NPC's...
But we still got hit but the lightning bolt, because the DM viewed that reaction happens straight after the trigger..
This could lead to having 10 Mages flying outside the window .. with this ruling, PC's Ash!!! because 2 of the PC's are sleeping, no Save..on Dex.
So, Main question.. Can you Ready your action out on Combat?
If so, the is a big can of worms.. PC's walking around with Cantrip readied..
There is nothing in the rules to allow attacking outside of "combat". There is also nothing to allow readying and action outside of combat.
So to pull this off "by the book"....
The Mages want to attack, so Init is rolled.
Since all PCs have alert, no one is surprised, and everyone acts on their init step. Mages can ready and action at that point, but it isn't useful.
That said, I allow for a 'starting strike'.... so I would allow the initial LB to be cast, but then combat starts, and everyone rolls init. To see the problem, lets pretend none of the PCs had alert. It would be very reasonable for the PCs to be surprised. So every mage gets to attack 'before combat', then every mage gets to attack during the first round, then any mages with a higher init get to go.... before *any* PC would get to do anything. So the mages will get 2-3 attacks each before the PCs can take any actions or move.
If the DM really wants to play this way, you guys are going to destroy most of the enemies you come across, since none of them will have Alert.
Coredump00 wrote:
vamp70 wrote:
Alert can be pretty confusing.
I'd normally rule that the ambusher reveals themselves just prior to the attack in some way. For a spell attack that's easy, it takes some time to cast the spell. Most other real situations would be the same, you move from behind cover or maybe step on a twig, or something.
But if there's a good case that the ambusher can't plausibly give themselves away (maybe an invisible silenced attacker with a longbow 200 ft away in the darkness), then I would simply declare by DM fiat that the ambusher won initiative.
@vamp70
You can't do combat actions outside of combat. You can neither attack, nor "ready" an action outside combat. If players (or DM) want to initiate combat, the DM will first determine surprise, establish position and then roll initiative. Only then you can do combat actions.
Allowing "Ready" outside combat is a really bad idea. I tried that once but it just ended up with the players constantly stating pointless ready actions (or "destroying" event triggers).
vamp70 wrote:
Readying a spell. A readied spell is maintained by concentration and goes off on the creatures Reaction.
Ambush..
Round 1). A party of four sleep in a Leomunds Hut. two enemy wizards cast spells. 1 dispel magic. 1 chain lightening (readied action, on seeing Hut spell go down)
Round 2). Initiative is rolled. 3 PCs have alert, are not surprised. Only the surprised PC looses his actions this round. Iniative order is establied. Reaction of previous round by wizard goes off before anyone can react because reactions go off when they are "readied for" and that would appear to be the 1st thing that happens in round 2. After chain lightning, party and enemies go off in normal iniative order.
Round 3). Normal iniative order combat continues.
So.. what exactly in there is contrary to RAW.. seems pretty straight forward to me.
As to holding a readied action all day on the offchance of it being applicable, sure thats kinda crazy.. But in the above situation.. the Action is held for less than 1 round (6seconds).. doesn't seem unreasonable?
So.. what exactly in there is contrary to RAW.. seems pretty straight forward to m
There was a dev tweet which stated that the combat actions listed in the PHB were intended to only be used after initiative is rolled. This wasn't directly from Jeremy Crawford mind you but it does give us the intent behind the rules. You're not supposed to be able to use the ready action, attack action, bonus action, etc.. outside of an encounter where initiative has been rolled. So for your example, initiative would be rolled by all participants in the encounter before any of the spells go off or actions are readied.
I don't personally run it this way for various reasons, for example:
It creates weird situations where in a scenario like: There's a king who is celebrating a victory by the adventurers in his main hall, everyone is having a good time. However, no one knows that the advisor to the king was actually the one pulling the strings the whole time and now that he has been thwarted by the party, he decides to attempt a coup. Now normally before anything happens, the DM has to ask everyone to roll initiative. Nothing has happened yet to cause an encounter. This now takes away the surprise element for the plot. As soon as you ask the players to roll initiative, you destroy the drama unfolding as you then have the advisor wait for his turn in the initiative order, to then plunge his dagger in the kings chest. You can, as the DM, rule that everyone is surprised in the room from a mechanical point of view but by announcing that everyone roll initiative ahead of time I feel you just shoot yourself in the foot for the scene. It takes away from it. Instead, I would have the advisor do his thing and then suddenly he stabs the king without any notice or warning. The players are then surprised, which I then translate into mechanical surprise in game for their characters. Once the act is done, that's when people roll initiative. The act of killing the king is what triggers the encounter. Not announcing that everyone roll initiative.
As noted above, it also means that if you have one character which would begin the encounter, say a hidden foe which has not been detected which attacks from its hiding spot, you then have the first round well under way by the time the initiative could get to that foe. So that takes away from Assassins and any other character that would have gained a mechanical benefit from the first round, surprise being a factor or not. The reverse is also true, if you have a party split up into two groups, and one group needs to wait for the second group to act before they can do anything, say they need to wait for group 1 to hit a lever to raise the portculis blocking their path.. it means that until group 1 gets their initiative turn, they basically sit there wasting the first round if initiative rolls don't cooperate with the plan.
Encounters are also no longer started by a triggered event. Which I personaly don't like.
Anyway yes, I understand the DM is free to change these issues at his table. In fact it's relatively simple to do, but this is how it's written in the book. This is the way it works in AL. I think it's bad design.
jaelis wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Yeah, technically there may be no "surprise" round in 5e, but calling the 1st round of combat following a bandits ambush the surprise round is kinda ingrained into most of us old-timers after all these years.. probly not gunna change after all this time..lol.. And really, what you call the first round of combat regardless makes no difference. You still either act or don't.. I do agree with Noctoem tho. With no itiator event for combat.. it totally screws with the realism of an event.. "Bwaha, the invisble Assassin leaps from the balcony above striking at his foe (PC)" .. all groups roll initiative.. The PCs all beat the Assassin on initiative and kills him before he even decloaks to attack.." Yeah, don't see the logic of that 
brettlangbdl wrote:
That would be a houserule, though. I don't see the rules stating that the DM is allowed to freely set initiative himself depending on situation. I'm not even sure if the DM can grant Advantage on the initiative roll, since the rules for advantage only refer to "attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws". Only on a tie the DM seems to get full decision power.
Rya.Reisender wrote:
Good point, okay then, I'd say you can give advantage on initiative, but not just say "It's one higher than the highest roll".
brettlangbdl wrote:
Arial Black.. thanks for the chuckles and the in-depth explanation. I think I will keep that too
Noctaem wrote:
vamp70 wrote:
'I've got a bad feeling about this!'
...represents someone making the roll to sense an invisible attacker, beating the attacker's stealth check. Doesn't allow him to see the invisible attacker. If he's faster than the attacker, then on his turn there is no baddy to attack, that he can see.
He can still take his turn though. Perhaps he might take the Dodge action.
Something i realised in passing. A Leomund's Hut is a dome of force, like a wall of force (but a dome). The exception being that creatures that are inside the dome at casting can pass through the dome. The spell describes how all other creatures, objects and spells can't pass through it (this would include sound). So those inside could see through the dome (whilst those outside could not if dome was opaque). That would make your perception checks for detecting creatures on the other side of the dome at Disadvantage if they were trying to be stealthy wouldn't it, or something like that.. cause they would be effectively 100% silent. ? Just curious
brettlangbdl wrote:
I did think about that.. But if you allow sound to pass through the dome "and not just the PC's as a force field pass-code security measure" doesn't that open up a loop-hole for other sound based effects? What about a thunderous sound-based breath weapon.. thats not considered a magical effect? Just a loud voice
brettlangbdl wrote: