Hello.
So Im playing with a friend that has a halfling rogue with 2 weapons. He does do some extremely damage, and in addition to this he has got the lucky halfling trait. He outshines the fighter and it just seems a bit to much. Level 1 with a maximum of 21 damage is a lot pr turn!
So first I wanted to ask about the size. Since halfling isent medium but small, can it realy double wield 2 normal 1d6 short swords? I was thinking 2 daggers would be more normal, or a shortsword one size smaller perhaps? Feel a bit like a human dual wielding 2 longsword...
Second about the sneak attack. It seeme "everything" is an advantage, is there any chance on limiting this to a normal level? And what really gives an advantage?
Last but not least the luck of the halfling, it says role again on a 1. But it doessent say maximum 1 time pr turn. An example today was that the rogue got snake eyes on 2 hits in the same round with 2 weps and then could re role both attacks!? Is this really correct, or should it be once pr turn?
First, 21 damage is correct, d6+3 for the main weapon, d6 for the offhand, and d6 for sneak attack. But of course it is pretty unlikely to get that maximum.
About size, two shortswords is certainly legal. The only thing a halfling can't use is a heavy weapon like a glaive. Halflings are balanced fine with the other races, there is no need to penalize them further.
Sneak attack works any time you have advantage, yes. It should not be so easy to get that at first level... you could be hidden, but it is hard to be hidden right next to your target. Your target could be prone or restrained or the like, but then someone had to make an effort to cause that.
Of course, you can also get your sneak attack when an ally is next to your target. So in the end you should be getting your sneak attack most of the time.
About lucky, you can only reroll each die one time, but there is no limit per turn. So if you rolled snake eyes for your two attacks, you would roll twice more and you have to take what you get.
Two weapon fighting is certainly a strong strategy for a rogue, but one he is second level, Cunning Action will be competing for the bonus action it requires. But overall, yes, rogues are supposed to be able to do pretty good damage. I wouldn't be surprised if a TWF rogue had the highest max damage per round at level 1, but not by a lot, and they are quickly surpassed by fighters and other characters.
I infer from "snake eyes" that your rogue may be re-rolling his damage dice. If this is the case, keep in mind that Lucky only applies to d20 rolls (ability checks, saving throws, attack rolls), not other die rolls, such as damage rolls.
"Lucky" certainly is a nice ability, but I don't think that it's overpowering. Consider that Halflings move more slowly than most PCs, can't use big weapons, are easier to push around or move through, and don't have darkvision like many demi-humans.
Lucky applies to d20 rolls only.
If you have (dis)advantage, you only can reroll 1 of the dice.
But yes, dual wielding halfing rogues deal the most damage at level 1.
Don't expect it to last though. At level 2, fighter's actoin surge brings alot to the table, while rogues get cunning action, which directly competes with their second attack.
Well, the rogue is only slightly ahead of the TWF fighter at level 1. The TWF fighter gets +3 (ability mod) on the second attack, the rogue gets an extra d6 (average 3.5) for sneak attack. Given the fact that sneak attack may not trigger each and every round at that level (only if the rogue is free to move and can gang up on enemies), I think it's quite balanced. If you roll for ability scores and the PCs get 18 dex (which is more likely than not), the TWF fighter even comes out ahead.
Proletheus is right. And on top of that, dual-wielding rogues miss out on cunning action a lot (since both take a bonus action), which is not insignificant.
As for "everything gives advantage", you must be playing it wrong because at level one it is very difficult to get advantage. Remember that unlike past editions, flanking does not give advantage (although it does grant sneak attack), and hiding takes a standard action.
You can use the sneak attack dice when you have advantage, but not every sneak attack needs to have advantage. The rule that you can sneak attack while you have an ally next to your target is the easiest way to make sure you can use the sneak attack damage.
Be carefull that the players are not exploiting the advantage system. If the combat is underway and they hide and then try to run up to stab someone they will normally be seen.
Some rules to keep in mind:
Basic rules 0.1 (pg. 73)
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on
attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when
you make an attack, you give away your location when
the attack hits or misses.
Basic rules 0.1 (pg. 60)
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you
make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a
vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t
be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage
might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger
all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach
a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain
circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay
hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing
you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
DMs can always rule differently, but in my campaign the player can't assume that they can get advantage when attacking after hiding during combat. Just rushing in from hiding should be almost automaticaly reveal where the rogue is unless the players are intetionally working together to position the monsters just right.
I'd give more leeway for ranged attacks as long as they move from the spot where they were hidden before making their ranged attack. If they jump behind something and hide and then they jump right back out the'd be seen by their target.
Hopefully the players and you agree on what cases they should be able to use advantage.
I'm confused as to how he's getting advantage on melee attacks. As MrHotter pointed out, creatures should be able to see him come out of hiding.
Where I'm seeing halfing rogues shine is in ranged combat. Cunning Action combined with Naturally Stealthy to hide behind a medium-sized party member as a bonus action (specialization gives him a +7 to Dex (Stealth)). Then since he's hidden, his ranged attack has advantage and gets sneak attack damage... at level 3 he's pretty much doing 3d6+3 every turn.
mellored wrote:
Grahmir wrote:
mellored wrote:
the halfling rogue in my group multiclassed as fighter at 2nd lvl for two-weapon fighting style. He wields two shortswords (20 dex), so he gets Hit +9, damage 1d6+5 on both main, and off-hand now. So with sneak attack and assuming he hits both time, he can do 3d6+10 damage for his round of actions. Not to shabby. I've noticed surprise rounds a hassle for dual-wielders tho, they can only unsheathe one weapon in thier surprise round, unless you assume they are walking around all-day with both weapons in-hand! lol
I am probably in the minority still, but I hate the Lightfoot Halfling + Rogue combo. Not so much because it is "powerful". I just hate having to track whether the character can or cannot hide and if the monsters do or do not spot him hiding behind a human... A human ... EVERY DAMN ROUND, just to see if they get advantage. I'm actually not allowing Lightfoots in my game at all specifically because of that. The reptitive mechanics and tracking the characters action expenditure just to see if I'll allow them to hide is just not fun to me.
As of 1st level you are limited to ONE attack action, move action, Reaction and free action in a given round. The Rogue gains his Bonus action at 2nd level via Cunning Ation class ability.
Main hand attack is your attack action, and the off-hand attack is your bonus action; therefore if you elect to attack with your off-hand using your bonus action, you no longer have it available to use with your rogue's base bonus action traits; dash, disengage or hide. Your free action only allows you to 'unsheathe' one weapon tho, so dual-wielders will be keen to pick up the Dual-Wielder Feat which allows you to draw two one-handed weapons with your free action.
As regards your halfling rogue hiding behind people - pretty sure that will only work the 1st time..lol Scenerio...Party walking down a corridor in a dungeon, halfling mainting stealth in the 2nd rank behind the tall human. 1st round of combat he uses his stealth and beats the goblins passive perception. He snap fires from behind human and shoots goblin with advantage; he has broken stealth and goblins now know where he is. He jumps back behind human and tries to hide. Even if he succeeds at hiding, the goblins know exactly where he is.. hiding behind that big human! lol
THE PHB has this under Hiding - In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you.. Way i've read that is once the stealthed individual breaks cover, combatents are aware of you, so that "surprise" attack is no longer an option unless you can gain "special circumstance..eg., invisibility or something else the DM aggres the enemy wouldn't be expecting..So, for the 1st round of combat.,ie 'surprise round', a creature that has maintained cover/hiding and succeedeed on his stealth vs perception check gets his advantage attack.. Following rounds, he's ****-outa-luck.. 
Durwan wrote:
Sands666 wrote:
Also, if the rogue is hiding behind an ally, their target will have cover. So the rogue is trading advantage for the cover penalty, not really that great.
Rhenny wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Sands666 wrote:
Sands666 wrote:
Sands666 wrote:
Sands666 wrote:
brettlangbdl wrote:
Bantam wrote:
Gronka wrote:
Using the old method of drawing lines from corners (since I didn't see any clear-cut rules on determining cover in 5e), a creature would only have cover from a rogue hiding behind an ally if their ally is directly between the rogue and the creature.
It seems like to prevent the hide-behind-an-ally-every-turn-to-sneak-attack shenanigans you'd have to house rule something. But honestly, the rogue in my game is having fun doing it and it's not breaking anything, so I feel no need to prevent it.
SeanCaruso wrote:
mellored wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
If the enemy is on the opposite side of the ally used to hide behind by the halfling, then the enemy should have half cover doesn't he?
BR74 Cover: A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
Here's how I picture it:
The rogue (black smiley) is hiding behind his ally (green smiley) fighting two enemies (angry frownies). Using rules for determining cover from 3rd and 4th eds. (line drawing between corners and all that), frowny 1 would have cover from the rogue but frowny 2 wouldn't. D&D 5th ed. doesn't have the clear-cut rules for determining cover, so I figured I'd just use the old ones. Granted, this is just my interpretation... I'm unaware of anything in the rules that gives a better-defined way of determining this.
Same thing with firing from one side of an arrow slit - I'd rule that targets don't have cover from you, but you'd have pretty good cover from them.
if it was a 30 foot long halway only 5' wide woould you let the halfling fire at the end of the hallway through his buddy? if yes then would you then consider that the buddy taking up his 5' interfears with the halflings ability to fire his weapon as effectively as if his buddy wasnt taking up that space? if yes to both then no cover for the enemy, if no to either, then 1. the halfling cant shoot, or the enemy gets cover, not because he is behind cover per say, but because the 5' space the halflings buddy takes up in front of him obscures and hinders his ability to shoot. i suppose you could instead of giving cover to the enemy give disadvantage to the halfling for trying to not hit his buddy in the knee with the weapon.
as far as hiding behind a medium creature thats fine, but if you leave from behind in semi bright light and move more then 5' in unobscured area i would say you are easily seen, otherwise what would be the point of invisibility as a power just in this instance. stealth is not a power, it's a skill, if you want to move around in an open area, unless it's pretty dark, or you are invisible, your probly going to get noticed.
SeanCaruso wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Beeing the DM for this game, I must say that advantage was not given all the time, but it was an issue often enough, and seeing how powerfull advantage is, i want to be sure i got thing correctly.
The issue here is that the halfling feels that he could hide behind a allied size M creature, and attack with advantage whoever the ally is attacking, or next to them. Example shown.
I would argue that E1 and E3 Would be able to spot the rogue, so there would be no hiding from them, while E2 is out of reach for a melee attack.
The rogue feels like he should be hidden from all enemies in this scenario and gain adv. against E1 and E2 in melee, in addition to sneak attack for ally beeing within 5feet of the enemy.
On top of that, he feels that a halfling is so small that it should be able to hide in the open when effectsimilar to fog, snowdrift, etc is in present. I do not think that is the case, and I can not (by searching the rules) finding anything that supports his claim. But in case I have missed something obvious, is there any such rules regarding halflings or rogues ?
I would think that the rules assume a 360 field of view, and thus stealth in melee is almost impossible to get.
I do feel there is a bit of need to set the record straight for this char, since it has a certain potential to be OP, but i dont want to be a overly restrictive DM as well.
I would like concrete rules to support my actions whenever possible, but I will gladly take advise and opinions as well
"I would argue that E1 and E3 would be able to spot the rogue, so there would be no hiding from them, while E2 is out of reach for a melee attack."
Correct!
I think the wording could be better for the racial feature.
From the Player Basic Rules 0.2 (pg. 17)
Naturally Stealthy. You can attempt to hide even
when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least
one size larger than you.
The way it's writen now we have to figure out when the halfling is obscured, but as far as I can tell, the rules just mention half cover while behind someone and not how obscured you are when you have half cover. Unless you are standing behind a ghost or dust devil you have cover and not obscurment.
I think it should say that when the halfling is getting half cover from an ally or enemy (+2), they can treat it as total cover (not targetable). That may be too powerful since it would not require a hide roll, but I don't see why every halfling should be puting points into dex and taking the hiding ability.
I can see where a non halfling rogue could say they carry around a huge shield on a tripod and then set it down during a fight so they can do the same thing the halfling is doing when jumping behind an ally to hide.
I'd argue that the Naturally Stealthy ability of the lightfoot halfling is an instance of specific beating general. Normally you can't hide if someone can see you, but a lightfoot halfling can hide if they're obscured by a medium+ ally.
Plaguescarred wrote:
Elothan wrote:
Elothan wrote:
A lot of good feedback here
As for why the rogue feels he need advantage:
I think it is a bit of a mix between trying to stack all odds in his favor as often as possible (a tad of powergamer), and perhaps a bit of wanting to be able to pull off melee sneak attack on his own in combat.
I also think the wood elf ability is playing mind tricks on him, since he considered taking that race, but finally setteled on halfling.
All in all i think it is a mis reading of the rules, combined with a bit of lust for powergaming, and a mis-remembered/mixed up ability.
I do not run a particular hard adventure, and it is scaled down a bit for fewer players as well.
Setting aside some of the obvious shenanigans mentioned in this thread (e.g. making melee attacks with cover on E1 and E3), a dual-wielding halfling rogue will outdamage everyone at very low levels of play. This doesn't last, however, so you shouldn't generalize this to mean that "dual-wielding halfling rogues are too powerful". The other classes just take a little longer to come into their own.
The halfling cannot hide behind an ally - you cannoy hide from someone who can see you (you need total cover or total darkness or invisibility to hide - unless you are a Wood Elf in which case they have a racial that works with natural obscurity and doesn't need total concealment.)
I would allow him to hide around a corner and use his ally as cover to stay hidden, though.
Plaguescarred wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Yunru wrote:
If you are in melee, you don't need advantage to gain a sneak attack.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
Bupp wrote:
Durwan wrote:
shivafang wrote:
You kidding me? Dual Wielding Crossbows with a +2 to hit is where it's at!