Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Batla76 Jan 04, 2015 17:19:04	When Casting a Scorching Ray, Does the Evocation Specialist with Empowered Evocation add their Int. Modifier (lets say 5 for example) to each damage roll 2d6 + 5 for each ray, or the total damage roll of the spell 6d6 + 5? Same question with the Fire Elemental Affinity Sorceror. And last but not least, If they are multi-class Wiz/Sorc, would it all stack for a crazy Nova?   D          Overchanneled    Empowered Evoc(Wiz)  Elemental Affinity(Sorc) 2d6      12                         5                                    5  2d6      12                         5                                    5 2d6      12                         5                                    5   DMG = 66?
#2 Macv12 Jan 04, 2015 17:50:23	That's the beauty if Scorching Ray, nothing scales as well as it does. Since Empowered Evocation says it adds to te damage roll of any spell you cast, yes, it adds to each ray. Elemental Affinity is "when you cast a spell that deals damage (...), add your Charisma modifier to that damage." Scorching Ray does a static amount of damage, it just does it multiple times. So Elemental Affinity applies to that damage, then each ray that's shot references the new boosted damage value.   So yes, both features work with all rays. Also, since the Wizard feature works with only Wizard spells, but the Sorc version works with any class spell of the right element, yes, they stack. This is something I expect some DMs may want to alter though, because the damage is just so crazy exploitable, so be aware that actually using this combo may get it nerfed.
#3 Coredump00 Jan 04, 2015 18:48:35	eh.... not overly impressed.   To pull off this trick, you need to be 20th level, and have a 20 int and 20 char; which I don't think is even possible since you will only get 4 chances to bump your stats.   The Overchannel trick can only happen once, or you start taking some pretty serious damage in return.   You give up getting to use any 8th or 9th level spells.....
#4 Macv12 Jan 04, 2015 22:01:03	It's still unparalleled single-target damage for a spell. You're multiclassing two pretty friendly classes for a fully serviceable character, plus this spell that does 20d6+100 (ish, about 170) on a 9th level slot, but becomes exploitable long before you have 9th level slots because of the great scaling, and remains highly exploitable with your remaining slots after you spend the big one. It can be a showstopper, and you don't need to put together a lot of pieces; 20's (or close, it will still work fine with even mediocre stats) in two non-complementary stats, but for classes that barely need anything but those primary stats (just be careful about staying away from pointy objects). Try to grab Hex if you roll stats or something and have a feat to spare, your DM will love that. Who needs 9th-level spells when you do laps around Meteor Swarm in terms of single-target damage?   That said, Core right in that it's not actually game-breaking, just really good. The problem is, if your damage really gets out of hand, the DM doesn't have to sit there and take it. The one way most DMs would probably "nerf" this pretty hard is to be generous with fire-resistant or -immune enemies. So you won't get a lot of mileage out of this if the DM doesn't want it to work in a given fight.
#5 Saelorn Jan 05, 2015 13:10:38	It applies when you cast the spell, and not when you hit or make an attack. Assuming you had one ability or the other, you could hit one target for 6d6 + 5, or three targets for 2d6 + 5 each.
#6 Rhenny Jan 05, 2015 17:08:55	You also have to hit with each ray so it isn't auto damage.
#7 Sorxores Jan 06, 2015 7:38:32	Batla76 wrote:
#8 Yunru Jan 06, 2015 17:15:52	So you're saying a character with a rare magical item will outperform a character with no magical item? Color me shocked. Also level 6 and under spells still aren't useless. A level 6 Scorching Ray by this build would do 119(*accuracy) average damage. 102(*accuracy) for level 5.
(Reply to #8) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #9) Macv12	Coredump00 wrote:
#11 Coredump00 Jan 07, 2015 1:35:00	Oh I agree that its good.....  just providing pushback for the aspect of the combo that doesn't come online until late. People keep tossing around huge numbers that can't happen legally...   Heck, just the basic of getting to add in INT and CHA doesn't happen until 16th level.  At that point you will only have access to 5th level spells, while a 16th level wiz would have up to 8th.
#12 TheNovaLord Jan 07, 2015 1:37:22	Why do we keep having number crunch threads. Go play PF if you want vast numbers or a computer game 5th I'm sure is not designed for this and is easy to break, manipulate, bend   Play in the spirit it was created!!
(Reply to #9) Yunru	Coredump00 wrote:
#14 Byakugan01 Jan 07, 2015 7:43:17	I keep hearing how great scorching ray is, but every time i read it i am underwhelmed.    Chromatic orb would be doing 4d8 + 5 as a 2nd level spell, with 1 attack roll. The benefit being u can pick the element.     At 10th level the pumped fireball or the cone of cold just seems stronger to me.
(Reply to #14) Macv12	Byakugan01 wrote:
#16 Yunru Jan 07, 2015 8:58:58	That and as you mentioned, Scorching Ray is less swingy. For comparison I'll use Eldritch Blast and Firebolt at level 17 without modifiers: Firebolt does 4d10 if it hits, 0 if it misses. Eldritch Blast does 4d10 if 4 attacks hit, 3d10 if 3 attacks hit, 2d10 if 2 attacks hit and 1d10 if 1 attack hits. Still 0 if all miss though. The downside, of course, is that you hit the average more at the cost of hitting the extremes, both high (boo) and low (yay), less.
(Reply to #13) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #13) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
#19 Yunru Jan 07, 2015 9:22:48	Coredump00 wrote:
#20 Coredump00 Jan 07, 2015 10:17:52	Not at all.  There are times I disagree with you, yet do not respond with statements like you used above.  There are times when you are provably wrong, yet I still don't respond with "Gee, more wrong statements"  How is that at odds?
#21 Ashrym Jan 07, 2015 13:52:08	Evoker 14 / dragon sorcerer 6 looks solid to me going variant human for the bonus feat to add elemental adept. It allows sorcerer-like play with arcane recovery, spell swapping and variety, and a strong ritual mechanic. It allows wizard-like play with metamagic. The low sorcery points don't matter because the build allows swapping slots for more points as desired. I would just start wizard and go straight 14 levels for overchannelling asap because then I can go INT at 4th level, INT at 8th level, CHA at 12th level, CHA at 18th level, and then flourish the combination of overchannelling and quicken/twin after the wizard levels. Evoker 14 supports the combination while moving to sorcerer easily enough. The trade off of higher level abilities looks good enough to match the benefits, and I wouldn't call it a one-trick-pony at all. The INT / CHA skills set reminds me of a courtly advisory concept. Straight wizard first also prevents slowing down access until it would naturally slow down anyway, at which point it would not be taken regardless.
#22 Byakugan01 Jan 07, 2015 19:55:38	Our group is currently 5th level, so the spell attack bonus is +4int+3proficiency for +7 total....monsters AC is roughly 15 for us, so I usually need an 7 or 8 to hit.  If I am rolling 3 attacks, the odds are good that I am missing one of those shots.  So I am working with 4d8(18) vs 4d6(14) with the possibility of 6d6(21).  Im still 5 levels away from adding my Int bonus.  If I need to attack more than 2 or 3 creature, I am better off using Shatter or if they are scary monsters, Fireball.  Evoker SPecialists should have very few issues avoiding hurting our friends.   The catch is that with my familiar(owl) assisting me, I can have advantage on all of those Chromatic orb shots...whereas that only help the first shot for the rays.  The versatility of chosing element types and having a substantial chance to hit normally seems like a fair trade to me.  Chromatic orb crits are just FUN!   Once you are level 10, the single damage potential spikes, but it is still only 1 elemental type, and it still requires 3+ attack rolls. Once you are level 14, u can just Overchannel Empowered Fire Bolts all day with advantage. No spell slots and no damage (until they eratta it).
#23 Yunru Jan 08, 2015 2:30:45	I doubt it'll get eratatta'd. Agonizing Eldritch Blast does an average damage of 31.5 at level 14. Overchanneled Firebolt does 35. At level 20 it's 42 vs 45. So it's just stronger than the blaster caster (but still swingier), before we introduce Hex. Which is fine, it's the blaster wizard subclass.
#24 Byakugan01 Jan 08, 2015 4:35:39	The evocation wizard class needs a bunch of errata/clarifications.    Potent Cantrip is 'basically' useless as written.  Theyccan just print new spells in splatbooks but that won't help AL players.    Empowered evocation needs to be clarified if it is supposed to be once per target, or once per attack roll.  It is debateable. Mearls said it isnt supposed to multistack against 1 target.    Overchannel needs to be clarified. Mearls said it wasnt supposed to work on cantrips.        They HAVE to fix simulacrum. Many other spells have issues too.  Such as Find Steed and Suggestion.  sure there plenty of others.  These are just obvious ones.
#25 Yunru Jan 08, 2015 4:54:52	Mearls admitte that he isn't a source of rulings, and that any such questions should be addressed to Crawford. Thus there's no clarification needed fro Overchannel. Not that there ever was anything unclear, cantrips are 0 level spells, thus 0 damage from repeated Overchanneling.
(Reply to #24) Ashrym	Byakugan01 wrote:
#27 Byakugan01 Jan 08, 2015 17:01:55	Yes, there is an automatic disclaimer that goes with anybody making a public statement.  That doesn't mean that their opinions don't carry weight.   I also specifically said there was a need for both errata and/or clarifications...and all of those things I listed count.  They either need rules changes or clarifications.   I said Potent Cantrips was 'basically' useless because it is.  It only affects 2 cantrips in the PHB, which are bad spells that almost no one takes, and they are both CONJURATION spells.   Kinda odd for an EVOCATION specialist.  From what I have heard, in the playtest it also triggered on a missed attack roll with a cantrip, but that a lot of people QQed about it so they changed it near the end.
(Reply to #26) Coredump00	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #28) Ashrym	Coredump00 wrote:
#30 Coredump00 Jan 09, 2015 10:45:05	Thanks.     So what we have are multiple tweats from both main designers confirming what is written (which we all knew), and simultaneously calling into question if it was intended or balanced.   Which kind of fits the exact descriptoin of something that needs a FAQ.
(Reply to #30) AaronOfBarbaria	Coredump00 wrote: