Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 p3ck May 07, 2015 5:05:58	Say I am being chased by an enemy and I run into small storeroom. I decide to hide (conditions permitting) and get 22 on hide skill check. Enemy comes in and promptly rolls a perception (search) check and rolls 18. I am at that point hidden. Can the DM then continue contesting (searching) until he eventually beats my roll?  OR once the enemy has failed his initial search, he is convinced he has looked everywhere.   I believe the latter is true  and here's why ... if the roles are reversed and im in room searching for something and fail to hit the DC, I cannot just "keep searching" (ie rolling) until I find what im looking for. I take it that once I have failed my perception check vs DC my character is convinced he has SEARCHED EVERYWHERE and  does not continue searching further.   I am finding that our DM is tending to meta-game by knowimg my location in the meta-world. ie if I am moving stealthily, the NPC will somehow continue follow me until he beats my roll even though he has no idea where I am in-game. I have been tempted to just remove my minature from the board and say "while I am passing my stealth check i wont tell you which direction I have moved" to demonstrate the concept of being HIDDEN.   This situtation is compounded by the fact that my character can get +20 stealth rolls (pass without trace + stealth expertise).which almost guarentees success. It is a MASSIVE advantage but perfectly within the rules and I'm finding our DM does not like being outdone hence actively undermining my every attempt to hide.   Thoughts...
#2 jaelis May 07, 2015 5:16:29	p3ck wrote:
#3 AaronOfBarbaria May 07, 2015 5:38:46	Repeatedly searching in a room that actually has something hidden in it should be handled no differently than repeatedly searching in room that has nothing hidden in it; time is spent performing the search, and if the results of the search are uncertain a roll is made.   Since nothing stops a creature from spending hours repeatedly searching a an area with nothing hidden in it, nothing should stop them from continued search when something is hidden.
#4 Rya.Reisender May 07, 2015 6:38:18	It's the DMs call what the most reasonable behavior of a creature is. If it's reasonable for the creature to continue searching, he can run a search every round.
#5 Razintarr May 07, 2015 7:56:52	p3ck wrote:
#6 jaelis May 07, 2015 8:14:31	Razintarr wrote:
#7 Mal-Duroth May 07, 2015 11:13:00	I'd have said you were allowed to keep searching if you wanted to.   As a DM, if the enemy saw you run into the room and there was no way out, I would have him keep searching, and even tear the room apart, until you were found. If they didn't see you go in, or if there is another exit, I would probably have them stop after one search. But that search would be pretty thorough, you'd have to do better than just hiding behind a pillar or a box. Because of course if they just walk around the pillar, then you are found. [/quote]   I agree with jaelis. If you run into a room with no obvious exits, and your pursuer sees you go in there, he's going to tear that room apart until he finds you, for at least a couple of minutes anyway? It doesn't matter if you are +20 to hide, you picked an obvious hiding spot.   Imagine you are a guard chasing someone through a castle. You watch the person run into a storeroom with no other way out, you run in after her but when you get through the doorway you don't see her. Your livelyhood depends on you finding her. Are you just going to glance around for a few seconds and assume she's not there? You watched her run in there! There's no way out! Your mind couldn't even process that she might not be there. You are going to spend at least a few minutes combing through that storeroom because you know she has to be there! You're not going to give up right away just becaue you can't see her. What if you do give up and something happens? The crown jewels are stolen, someone is assassinated. What will you tell your superiour? "I chased this person into the storeroom. It was the weirdest thing, when I got there she was nowhere to be found. I just assumed she vanished into thin air." You'd be lucky if you were only fired. Imagine you're guarding the BBEGs lair? You want to explain to Darth Vader that you had the spy cornered in an storeroom but she somehow eluded you?
#8 p3ck May 07, 2015 14:27:01	Thanks for replies. So is the reverse true then? i.e when my character is searching I can just keep rolling until i get a natural 20? In either case could we just skip the rolling and just say you find what your looking for?
#9 Kentus May 07, 2015 14:35:14	p3ck wrote:
#10 iserith May 07, 2015 14:43:30	An ability check is called for when the DM finds that the action relative to the circumstances has an uncertain outcome. If the DM thinks that the outcome is certain, then there is no roll. That goes for PCs and monsters both.   So, in the case of your example, when you hide and the enemy tries to find you, the DM must decide if you successfully hide from the enemy, whether you fail to hide from the enemy, or whether it is uncertain and thus calls for a check. Therefore the DM might say, for example, that the enemy finds you after a thorough search, no roll. He or she might instead say that the enemy only quickly scans the room from the doorway and has no chance of noticing you and thus there is no roll. Or, the DM could say that the enemy makes a reasonable effort to enter and look around the room and that this has an uncertain outcome which demands an appropriate ability check(s).   Players do not have any ability to say they are rolling dice. It is the province of the DM to call for any and all checks of any kind.
(Reply to #8) Mal-Duroth	p3ck wrote:
#12 p3ck May 08, 2015 5:11:26	Thanks all. Good responses.   And the situation of meta-gaming? If I am being chased and I pass my stealth and continue to move while stealthed how do I address the issue of the DM knowing my meta-world position? Lets say im running north and being chased. I successfully stealth. Upon success I change direction East. How can do you explain to a DM that the NPC has no idea where I am or where I'm heading hence cannot just keep following me around (or stopping to continuosly search in my exact position) until he passes his check. Keeping in mind I almost always using pass-without-trace when stealthing so no tracking BS. As mentioned above, I feel as if I almost have remove my minature from the table to demonstrate the NPC's in-game view of the world, that is, the NPC has to guess where I am.
#13 jaelis May 08, 2015 5:37:08	You just need to have a good DM. The DM should run monsters from the monsters' perspective, not the DM's perspective. But I can't say I've ever run into trouble with that kind of thing.
#14 iserith May 08, 2015 6:29:04	p3ck wrote:
(Reply to #14) p3ck	iserith wrote:
#16 iserith May 08, 2015 8:01:00	p3ck wrote:
(Reply to #16) p3ck	iserith wrote:
#18 Wuzzard May 08, 2015 8:21:34	The DM can't metagame... or the DM must always metagame... not sure which.. and metagaming is not a bad thing if it makes the game more fun.   Regardless, you cannot hide from the enemy indefinitely in a small room.  A +20 stealth does not keep you from being seen if you don't have cover. As the enemy moves about and looks under tables, eventually you will be in line of sight and then the you're caught.
(Reply to #18) p3ck	Wuzzard wrote:
#20 iserith May 08, 2015 8:47:47	p3ck wrote:
#21 bawylie May 08, 2015 9:05:12	Furthermore, if the DM rolls the dice, they should abide by the outcome.    If the DM just wants to say, "Your pursuer scours the area until they find you?" they're free to do so.    But why even bother using dice if you just want to reroll results you don't like? To ratify or legitimize what you wanted to do in the first place.    Bad practice by this DM. Meta-gaming isn't the issue.
#22 OoftaMeg May 08, 2015 9:31:23	It seems like there are two separate issues here.   First, a guard sees you go into a room with no exits.  As a DM I could have the guard "take 20" (don't roll, just assume I eventually get a 20) and search the room thoroughly or simply move into the room and look behind every possible piece of cover.  As others have stated, you can't hide if there's nothing between you and the guard unless you are magically invisible.   Pursuers just "knowing" where you went is cheating unless there is only one way to go.   However, there are other questions.  Did the guards ever lose sight of you?  I would rule that in a chase situation that the pursuer needs to lose sight of you for at least a few moments (a round or so) before you could even attempt to hide.  In addition there must be somewhere for you to hide.  Are you fleeing down a crowded street during the middle of the day or an empty street in the middle of the night?   So if you duck around a corner into an alley, you may be able to hide in the shadowy recesses of a door as the guards run by.  If there is no shadowy recess, there's nowhere to hide once the guards enter the alley.  If the alley is long enough that the guards know there's no way you could have gotten to the other end, it's also going to be tough to hide.   Hiding and stealth is very situational and the rules are quite vague so I don't think there is one "right" answer without knowing the specific situation.  Even then different DMs are going to rule differently.
#23 MrHotter May 08, 2015 9:55:42	The  p3ck wrote:
#24 QwertyAzerty May 08, 2015 12:20:38	p3ck wrote:
#25 p3ck May 08, 2015 16:10:07	Thanks all. Appreciate the feedback.   One final, and open-ended question... As DM's how do you determine the "range" of a search attempt? At what range to you rule that the NPC or PC cannot effectively determine if something is hidden. So for example if the NPC sees a cabinet across the room would you rule that they have to move right up next to the cabinet to search behind it or can they stand in the middle of the room and do a terminator-like scan of the whole area?   I'm guessing if you're behind the cabinet and they move right up behind it a search would not even be required as you are in plain sight. At the same time, a blanket search without having to move around negate any kind of hiding startegy ie it doesnt matter WHERE you hide as the NPC will just blanket scan the whole area.   I know this is hard to answer without a very specific scenario just seeing peoples general approach.
#26 iserith May 08, 2015 16:22:34	The thoroughness of a search goes to the time spent on it. If the NPC can afford to commit the time, it does, and this grants automatic success, advantage, a lower DC, or whatever is appropriate to the scene and suits the goals of play (everyone having a good time and creating an exciting, memorable story). I addressed this in another thread regarding searching, though it is chiefly in reference to PCs rather than NPCs:   Here's a helpful way of thinking about it. Say you have a chamber and there is indeed a hidden item in a niche in the wall. You describe the scene in a pithy fashion and ask "What do you do?" Now think of what the players describe they want to do in terms of trade-offs.   Action: Everyone searches the room generally and quickly. Adjudication: Uncertain outcome. Group Perception check.   Action: One person searches the room specifically and quickly. Adjudication: Certain outcome - success (no roll), if the player specifically searched the niche in the wall. Certain outcome - failure (no roll), if the player specifically searched anywhere but the niche.   Action: Everyone or one person searches the room thoroughly. Adjudication: Uncertain outcome. Use passive Perception values. Cost for doing this is time.   Action: Everyone or one person searches the room exhaustively. Adjudication: Certain outcome - success (no roll). Cost for doing this is a lot of time, ten times as much as it would take to search it thoroughly.   As you can see, time is the cost, so you have to make that sting. An easy way to do this is to make checks for wandering monsters every X minutes or hours. The more time they spend on a thing, the greater the chance they run afoul of some monster. Another way is to create a countdown such as Princess Lilac being sacrificed at midnight unless they find her. The more time they spend, the greater the chance they fail their mission. Making time matter creates a meaningful choice for the players.   Finally, consider how you narrate the result of the adventurers' action after a failed check and think about using "progress combined with a setback" rather than outright failure. For example, a failed Perception check (passive or otherwise) might mean that the characters find the hidden item in the niche, but in the doing they make noise that draws unwanted attention. Or they end up taking more time than they wanted to. Or it reveals an unwelcome truth. Or whatever. It's when a player rolls low, finds nothing, then wonders if they can try again. You can beat that by having a failed check mean success at a cost.
#27 Coredump00 May 08, 2015 16:32:17	I will say one thing.....   If the room is large 'enough' and has 'enough' hiding places, I think it may be possible for the rogue to hide indefinitely by stealthing from one spot to another.  I am not going to go into all of the variables and possibilities that need to be considered.... just saying that it could be possible.   SImilar to sneaking out of the room at some point.       The "Range" of a search depends a lot on the level of search.   It may be possible to find an item from 15' away, but it may require being closer, or it may just be easier or even automatic.  Completely depends on what the item is, and how it is 'hidden'.
#28 Orethalion May 08, 2015 16:46:44	bawylie wrote:
#29 OoftaMeg May 08, 2015 17:01:50	I would say there are far too many variables to give a single answer.   My general rules: If someone is looking in your general direction when you move out from behind cover, they're going to see you.  Even if you have a 30 on your stealth roll, being stealthy does not make you invisible. If you are trying to move from cover to cover when someone could possibly see you, the creature you are hiding from must be distracted somehow or by some thing. Trying to move past someone when there is no cover is often a matter of timing, moving silently and being able to determine what will provide cover.   Is it a large room with only a few places to hide?  It's going to be tough for your rogue to move from hiding spot to hiding spot, especially if there's one person searching while another person is keeping watch.   A fairly large area with plenty of hiding spots and only a single guard?  Good chance you can move to a different piece of cover while they check behind something else.   But it's all very, very situational.  Does the person searching know the area being searched?  Are there other environmental factors that could help or hinder with stealth?   I always try to build a decent picture of the environment and then use common sense, assuming that someone with a high enough roll is pulling off some of the "duck around a corner when the cop isn't looking" that you see in movies.   As always, expect a lot of variation.
#30 p3ck May 10, 2015 5:30:59	Good stuff chaps. Thanks for the feedback
#31 Rya.Reisender May 10, 2015 6:01:20	For me it's quite situational too. In combat, I allow to use perception to find a hidden enemy once per turn (uses an action). That's the most common situation where looking for an enemy even makes sense. Outside combat, the players might say they want to search for enemies, but that's one single roll and if the result is higher than their passive perception, then I use that value instead of passive perception in case combat occurs (this might allow you to avoid "Surprise"). If the players know there is an enemy around but don't know where and they roll perception and fail, I usually initiate combat with the group being surprised. So in any case there will be combat if there are two opposing forces that know of each other. Then when I as DM play the enemy, I think what the most reasonable action is. Should the enemy use the surprise round to launch a ranged attack at advantage? Where would the enemy walk within it's movement range? etc. Only if the enemy gets far enough away that it can no longer be reached by any party member I end combat.   In any case, for me the problem in this thread doesn't even arise as I don't allow constantly searching for enemies in a room without initiating combat. But if we are talking about inside combat searching for an enemy, then I say: Yes - you can use your action and roll perception to try and detect a hidden enemy and you can do it as often as you get an action and this goes for both sides. Just like you can also try to hide every action.   Assuming you don't know that there are enemies and you don't see any while looking, why would you continue to search for enemies in the first place? The only case where I'd ever do that outside combat is when someone is constantly watching for enemies as it's his job and he's quite lawful, so he does it frequently and properly. In that case I'd continue rolling perception, because it's quite relevant when he spots the group.   Calculating the average time needed to succeed in finding something I would only use when searching for objects and not when searching for enemies.